Why You Should Seek Wisdom From Men Around You

Show Transcripts:

Voiceover:
Welcome to the Father on Purpose Podcast, featuring author and ministry leader Kent Evans and business executive and military veteran Lawson Brown. This is a show for you, dad. You want to be a godly and intentional father. Unfortunately, you’ve turned to these two knuckleheads for help. Let us know how that works out for you. Before we begin, remember this, you are not a father on accident. So go be a father on purpose. Please welcome your hosts, Kent and Lawson.

Kent Evans:
Hey, hey Lawson. Here we are again, and we are in part four or five of a series on our ebook Survival Gear, the 7 Must-Have Tools Every Godly Dad Needs for His Journey. And today we’re going to talk about building relationships as an essential piece of the Godly Dad’s Toolkit. But before we get to that, you have a small sneak preview you’d like to make.

Lawson Brown:
We’re in part four. I love this one. I do feel like we’ve talked about relationships a lot, which ought to say something, but to go a little deeper as its own episode I think is definitely worthy. Man, I’m so stoked about what we just got to experience and what the guys listening are also. I don’t know when it’s going to drop, but to have a super cool guest speaker, I hope we’ll do more of those. I know there’s some things that are lining up, and man, it helped me in so many ways to hear from him because he was a big part of my early, early on foundation of my faith building, getting to hear him on the radio a lot. And for him to join us was just… to see him live on camera and to hear his voice talking to us versus just rolling down the road on the radio, and it was like I couldn’t believe that this was happening. Just I was kind of giddy about dude, this is really happening. It was-

Kent Evans:
That one should drop, I don’t know the exact date, but it should be early December of 2021. We recorded it a few weeks ago and it was an absolute blast. In fact, at one point he takes a good shot at me, which is just hilarious.

Lawson Brown:
Yeah, that’s right, right.

Kent Evans:
Very funny. And so dad, if you’re listening, Lawson and I are going to probably be your hosts 80% of the time here, but we do want to loop in guys who have really deep fatherhood experience and probably even fatherhood experiences that we haven’t had. We’ll have some guys on here [crosstalk 00:02:35], and it’s a little bit… It’s kind of hush, hush. We don’t want to totally let the cat out of the bag just yet on who we interviewed. But I would say his name rhymes with Chip Ingram, rhymes with Chip Ingram. So that’s dads, man. You got to connect the dots, Lawson. We can’t give them some obtuse clue here.

Lawson Brown:
Man, having him with us was crazy.

Kent Evans:
It was awesome, yeah. It was an honor, it was a privilege. We were introduced to him through a set of mutual friends and man, it was just gold, one comment after the other. I have actually quoted him to my own family several times since then. It was really, really a rich time, which kind of led… Sort of indirectly, I didn’t mean for this to happen, but indirectly that does connect to today’s topic in the area of building relationships, because here’s what I would love to describe. Maybe 15 years ago, around there, I became connected to a gentleman in Louisville named Greg. And since then, I’ve kind of occasionally gone to lunch with him, maybe once a year kind of thing. Then when I started Manhood Journey, I went a little more frequently because the guy is brilliant, and so he’s just been pouring into me a few times a year over the last say five years.I’ll always text him and try to get lunch or coffee. Greg introduced me to a guy named Andrew. Andrew introduced me to Alex, who booked us with Chip… So the reason I mention that is because part of the reason we were connected to such a cool guy to interview was a 15 year long kind of relationship building process that I clearly didn’t have some grand strategy to, right? I wasn’t trying to go, well, step one, I’m going to talk to that guy for 15 years.

Lawson Brown:
Right, right. I’m going to keep this alive because one day he’s going to hook me up with Chip Ingram to get on our…

Kent Evans:
Yeah, it’s just a matter of staying close to guys, and then you just, ah, something happens where a dot gets connected at the right time, in the right way. So that podcast is going to be the direct result of us kind of like eating our own cooking here in this area of building relationships. The last shameless plug, I’ve got to drop this in. If you really, really want to dive into this topic, I hate to do this. Lawson, you can do it better than I can.

Lawson Brown:
No, it’s worth it, man. You should. It’s great.

Kent Evans:
But I wrote a book on how to go get input from other godly men, and the name of the book is called Wise Guys, and the subtitle is Unlocking Hidden Wisdom from the Men Around You, because that’s been a pattern in my life since I was a late teen and a counselor told me I needed to go find some guys to learn from. So all that to say, if you hop on Amazon and you want to get really good at gleaning wisdom from other men, go snag a copy of the book Wise Guys by Kent Evans and make sure it’s the one that says Wise Guys and it’s by Kent Evans, because if you’re not careful, you’re going to get the one called Wise Guys that’s about the mafia. There’s a whole other book on Amazon that is not mine. I am not trying to lead you into the mafia. I’m not suggesting you should go get advice from guys in the mafia, so just make sure you get the right book.Most guys, Lawson, do not build deep relationships, especially as they become adults, and I think sometimes we want to chalk it up to like gender and we will go, “Well, men just aren’t good at that. Women are great at that. They talk, they share, they’re honest. Men just aren’t.” And here’s what I would propose. Here’s what I would propose. Having been a man all 51 years of my life and having observed this pattern in men over the last couple of decades, here’s my hypothesis. We don’t develop deep relationships, and it’s not because we’re not wired to do it. It’s because we are selfish and fearful and prideful.

Lawson Brown:
Yep. I was going to say prideful.

Kent Evans:
Okay. You just throw that out there, and some guy just wanted to get mad at us and almost drove off the road just now. But we’ll unpack it a little bit. I think the challenge just becomes our self absorption. We’re so focused on ourself.

Lawson Brown:
Well, okay, go ahead. I thought you were going to say we’re more like DIYers, like we just want to do it ourself.

Kent Evans:
No, there’s a lot of truth to that.

Lawson Brown:
Like seriously.

Kent Evans:
Yeah, no. Tell us about that.

Lawson Brown:
Well, no. I was going to ask you, so we’ve talked before about it’s not easy to put yourself out there, but you got to just make an effort, get started. When has that happened? Not way back when, when you were first kind of getting into the faith or whatever, when has that happened with you recently? When have you left an interaction, a group, a dinner, some sort of something where you’re in a situation where there are people you don’t know and then you’ve left whatever that was and have practiced what you are preaching, which is putting yourself out there and developing a relationship with someone, another guy? How did that happen?

Kent Evans:
Yeah, I would say there’s a guy in my life, his name is John, and one of the traits of our relationship is we’ve gotten to a place where we can kind of share anything with either of us, bidirectional. He can share anything, I can share anything with him. We don’t really have to measure our words. So like, yeah, I heard a preacher one time, a guy I really respected, said, “Every leader needs at least a couple people in his life with whom he does not need to guard his words.” I can say it just like I think it, even if I think it a little raw and I wouldn’t use probably some of those words on our podcast. All of our sponsors would drop us. Wait a minute-

Lawson Brown:
Yeah. Ford trucks would be like, “Uh, we’re out of here.”

Kent Evans:
We don’t have any sponsors. We don’t have any sponsors. But I would say really in the last month I’ve had really transparent conversations with John, both where he was just kind of sharing some things that were important and vulnerable and real, same with me. And this past summer, I spent some time with a guy who’s a professional therapist working through some issues with one of my own sons. I wasn’t trying to “fix my son” as much as I was trying to fix my approach to my son, because the way I was going about handling some family dynamics was putting more trouble into the mix than helping. So I would say, I can think of at least a couple of guys in the last few, couple of months, three months, for sure, where, yeah, I was just really honest with them about what I was walking through and how difficult it was, partly as the just letting it out because I think that’s healthy, but also partly because they had a lot of wisdom to speak into that situation. Well, you know what, my therapist guy said something that’s still rattles around in my head. He said, “Don’t try to parent your children’s anxieties with anxieties of your own.” Man, oh my goodness. I was like, whew. And he’s like, “The reason this is driving you crazy, the reason that you are becoming angry, the reason that you are pouring gas on the fire is because you’re fearful and anxious of the future. And so you’re using your own anxieties to try to parent your child, who’s walking through a season of anxiety.” That is not helping.

Lawson Brown:
Oh, right.

Kent Evans:
Right? So recently, do you have somebody or people in your life like that, Lawson, that you have these relationships with?

Lawson Brown:
Yeah, I do. Before I tell a story about what happened last month, listening to you describe that that way, look, it’s not that you have to, you really ought to set your mind to going out there and finding some other guys. It’s that you get to, because they will bring such value into your life. Fathers who are trying to walk the path with God as the centerpiece of how they father with like-mindedness are going to help one another. So why would you want to do it alone? If we’ve got to talk about, okay, so it’s partly fear, partly selfishness, partly pride, whatever it is, move that out of the way because you get to do this thing called being a godly dad, with others. And they’re going to bring great value into your life and into your children’s lives, and you may not even be planning on it. You may not know what’s going to come. Honestly, you may not know that it ever did come, that you’re going to bring something to that other fellow’s life and the way that he parents, the way that he maybe models something with his kids or deepens his relationship with his wife. I got to meet a really cool dude. I know he won’t mind me saying his name, Jay. He’s a customer of ours up in the Washington DC, Baltimore area, and didn’t know this was coming. I was going to meet him again. It had been a couple of years because of the pandemic. We met in his office. We brought food and we met some other folks from the constituents within that office that we, as a supplier of things, need to get better relationships with all of them. This guy, Jay, the owner came in and I remembered him. He didn’t quite remember me, but we started talking, and dude, one thing led to another. I think it was just a small comment he made about, “I hate that I got here late because I would have said a blessing over the food,” like to us, his vendors, to all of his employees that came in, grabbed a box lunch that we’d brought in. So that one statement he wasn’t trying to… He was just talking. He was just like, it just came out of him. And so fast-forward now, he and I have developed a relationship where I look forward to being… I’ve gotten to see him another time or two even since then. And we do talk about work, some, but he’s a grandfather, he’s gone down a path that I haven’t yet to come upon. He’s gone through marrying a couple of daughters. And so it’s weird to think that I’m in this job and I’m just out there doing my sales visit, and next thing you know, God has placed somebody into my life that I believe is going to help me navigate, I don’t know, hopefully, honestly, maybe the next five or 10 years with this guy, if he’ll have it. And we’ve really hit it off, we’ve got a great relationship going. I just happened to be in the air quote, right place, right time, but I was also kind of open to it. And when he said that, I knew it was not safe, that’s not the right word. But I was like, “Do you do that often? Do you pray over-

Kent Evans:
What is this thing you mentioned called prayer? What steps have you taken or do you plan to take to nurture that relationship, Lawson? Here’s the reason I’m asking, just so you can frame it. I think a lot of dads are like, “Sure, okay, I’m open to that.” But they would say to themselves, I don’t know how. What are the first few steps to building these kinds of relationships? What do you do to get that boat moving?

Lawson Brown:
I mean, like with anything else, I think we found some common ground. I was doing my best to be kind of transparent, authentic about what I said. “Jay, you’ve gone through some things that I look forward to and I don’t want to go that route alone,” meaning daughters are getting into their early twenties, at some point, they’re going to find someone and down the road, we’ve also got some nieces and nephews in our lives that are having their first child. So you can see what’s kind of coming and it is both on one hand exciting and both daunting and a little bit like, oh, how are we going to go down that road? I’ve kept in touch with him through texting some articles back and forth. I sent him an episode of the podcast. He sent me back something where one of his sons was a guest speaker at their church. And so we’ve just kind of kept it alive. I guess I would summarize by saying, put a little effort into it, haven’t created a burden to him, but he does know that I’m pretty eager to stay a part of his life, if he’ll have it. I mean, I’ve said that to him.

Kent Evans:
What a great insight, man. On the other side of this short break, I want to dive into a couple of scriptures that can help guide us in this regard. And then also talk about some practical ways that if you feel hamstrung in the area of building relationships, Lawson and I can try and unlock some of that for you, right after this.

Kent Evans:
Hey Dad, do you wrestle with anger? Man, I sure have, and so have thousands of other dads in our email list. And so what we did for those dads and for you, we built a special digital course called the Anger Free Dad. This digital course is chock full of almost 50 assets, a bunch of teaching videos, a ton of PDF booklets and worksheets, so you can walk through and understand your anger triggers, the expectations underneath, and how to pull those out of your heart and mind so you can be a dad who is less angry and more at peace. If you take this course and you do not become less angry, you will get all of your money back. Plus we’ll send you some boxing gloves so you can beat up the wall at your house with all of your mad anger. Dad, come take the Anger Free Dad course today at manhood journey.org/anger-free-dad. That’s manhoodjourney.org/ anger-free-dad.

Kent Evans:
All right, Lawson, so right before the break, you were talking about what I think that I don’t want to overlook in the story you shared right before the break about this guy at a business meeting kind of says something, and then you picked up on it. I think that is what’s really, really interesting is that principle of like a radio, if you tune your radio to 88.7 or whatever, then you pick up the frequency 88.7, right? All those radio signals are flying through your house every day, there’s a bunch of music, in theory, flying through my house right now. And the reason that I’m not hearing any of it is because I don’t have a radio tuned to that frequency turned on. That’s all happening. It’s not like when I turn my radio on the station starts broadcasting right then. It’s constantly happening. And I just “notice it” as I tune in. For me the fascinating bit is that a guy like you, your spirit, your mind were ready to tune in and notice that thing. Don’t you think that’s a really important ingredient where a lot of guys are just, I wouldn’t say prideful, self-absorbed, whatever word we want to use. We’re just too wrapped up in worrying about what’s going on in our life, we don’t have our frequency tuned correctly. Don’t you think?

Lawson Brown:
Yeah. And it’s not always, I don’t think, that we have a guard up or that we’re overly selfish or fearful or anything. That is definitely, I think, sometimes part of just being a guy, we want to go this road alone. We don’t need anybody and we’ve got this. But guys, not only is it do you benefit a whole lot more from having people in your life, but it’s also more enjoyable getting to know them, them getting to know you, getting to know your kids, all that. In the case with Jay, I think you’re right, I wasn’t actively seeking, but God had kind of probably maybe prepared my heart a little bit. And I was just kind of… As soon as he said it, I was like, oh wow, this might be good, because he’s just a naturally likable guy, super charismatic. He wasn’t supposed to be there that day, I didn’t think, and so when he came in, I was like, awesome. I’d heard about him. I had heard good stories. I’d heard he was a real faithful man, he built a business on godly principles. And so then when he walked in, I was kind of eager, like, oh, nice. But yeah, so to the analogy of a radio station, I wasn’t out of tune, my radio wasn’t off, but I did not go there thinking I’m going to potentially go find a mentor today. But when it happened, I felt… and I guess I was more open to did it feel right, or was I hearing from God? It’s like, when it happened, I knew it.

Kent Evans:
Yeah. Well, I’m trying to pay you a compliment, which you know how rare those are. So I appreciate you demurring and being humble. But I do think you kind of operate in that sort of persistent state of being observant and being ready to receive, and I think it’s part of what’s made you a godly husband, a godly dad is that you’re ready to receive. I think you’re unique in that way. One of the scriptures I love on this topic is the scripture that is 1 Thessalonians 5:11, 5:11. And it says, “Therefore, encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.” “Encourage one another and build each other up just as in fact you are doing.” And that’s one of the things where when you read that closely, you notice Paul’s not saying, “Hey, stupid, encourage one another, because you’re not doing it.” No, he’s saying kind of the opposite. What he’s saying is, “Hey, you’re already doing that thing. Keep going, keep going.” I think there are three things I’d love to talk about in this half of the podcast that I want dads to realize in particular as it relates to their family context. Having a setting like yours, where you’re open, you’re ready, you’re willing to build relationships, there’s three things that it does for us as men in general, and as believers in general, but specifically as dads. Number one, when we have strong relationships, we benefit, as it said right there in 1 Thessalonians. Lay off the sauce, Evans, not before the show, at least. We benefit. There’s an encouragement and we’re building one another up. There’s this idea, it’s like an architectural metaphor where it’s like brick on brick and we’re becoming stronger in the process, but also number two, so are the people around us. So are the people around us. It’s important that I have relationships where I can give strength and encouragement and challenge and love and a listening ear to men around me and vice versa. I’m not just a receiver, I’m also a giver, but here’s the thing that’s really, really important for dads to catch on this topic of building relationships. As the old saying goes, I think it might’ve been somebody like John Maxwell or somebody said, “You don’t get what you teach. You get what you model.” You don’t reproduce what you say, you reproduce who you are. And one of the things that I really want my boys, in particular, since I have all sons, what I really want them to be able to do is to lean into the relationships around them. I want them to walk into the meetings, like you walked into that meeting, not necessarily like with your metal detector out, trying to find you a mentor, but you were open. You were open. You were you’re ready to receive.,The word mentor magnet just went through my head, like, okay, sorry.

Lawson Brown:
Right. That’s your next book.

Kent Evans:
But here’s the idea. Here’s the idea. When I do that, when my own kids see me being in the relationships around me, they naturally through osmosis pick up that trait. I’ve noticed it as my boys have gotten a little older-

Lawson Brown:
Oh, cool. What’d you notice?

Kent Evans:
My 22 year old son, Alex, is a stud musician. In fact, if you listen to our podcast, the musical intros, the musical breaks, the musical outros, he recorded all those. He’s not the voiceover guy. That’s my friend, Dave Hoffman, in Nashville. But Alex, my son, recorded all of our bumper music for this show, and he’s a really good musician. But what he does is he gets around other musicians and he asks them a lot of questions and he leans in, man. If we go to church, he’ll come back to visit and we’ll go to church. And after church, he heads right up to the stage and starts talking to the MD or the singer or the guitar player, and I know they’re having a conversation because he’s trying to receive from those men. He accidentally picked up that trait, but he also picked up some negative traits from me, for sure, tendency to argue, tendency to say before he talks, et cetera. But a positive one is, dad, if you become the guy who builds relationships around you, guess what? Your kids will start to pick up on that.

Lawson Brown:
So let me ask you this. So, anyone who’s around you for more than 60 seconds will understand that-

Kent Evans:
Is irritated.

Lawson Brown:
That you are naturally gregarious and engaging, fun-

Kent Evans:
Hey, hey, who you calling gregarious? Hold on while I look that word up.

Lawson Brown:
But I’m thinking about, just wondering, I’m thinking about the guy out there that’s like, “Well, that’s easy for you to say.” If maybe you’ve had a career in sales or in positions in your life in or outside of work, doesn’t matter, where you’re just kind of naturally inclined, gifted or not, but you’re naturally inclined to engage with people. Maybe somebody’s an introvert and it’s like, oh that’s a… I do not…. they’re drained. Like an introvert is drained by putting themselves out there, an extrovert is energized. So what do you say to that guy about getting out of an unnatural comfort zone?

Kent Evans:
Yeah. Well, first thing I would say is stop being such a baby. Okay.

Lawson Brown:
That’s usually my line, sorry.

Kent Evans:
I think there are a couple of things. I wouldn’t confuse building relationships with extroversion. So for example, what I mean is, yeah, it’s easier for me to kind of work a room because, yeah, I don’t mind going around and putting myself out there. I get that that is not everybody’s cup of tea. But being able to work a room and shake a bunch of hands and kiss babies, that is not building relationships. That is not building relationships. So don’t confuse the idea of kind of like some smarmy sort of dude going, “Hey baby, good to see you. If I were any better, I’d be two of you.” That kind of thing. Not that guy, not that guy. So introverts actually have a total advantage in the area of building relationships, because they’re wired to listen.

Lawson Brown:
That’s right. They’re great listeners.

Kent Evans:
They’re wired to listen. I’m wired to talk, which is actually a relationship barrier. I’ve had to learn how to listen over the last 30 years, where some other guys they’re just wired that way naturally. What the introvert needs to figure out is how to ask questions, because then he’s going to use his own superpower, the capacity to listen, which he probably starts on second base with, where I had to learn that my whole life, all he’s got to do is marry that up with questions. Because he’s going to listen to their answers. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve asked somebody, “Where are you from?” And they tell me, and two minutes later, I’m going good grief, what was his answer? I don’t know what he just said. I’m like, “Yeah, Texas is great this time of year.” And he goes, “I’m from Minnesota.” And I’m like, “Oh, I know. So for me, it’s listening well. And then can I just take like a one minute? Well, of course I can. This is our podcast, Lawson. We do whatever we want.

Lawson Brown:
Yeah, do it.

Kent Evans:
I’ll take a one minute diversion around this whole topic of personality tests, introvert versus extrovert, DiSC profiles, Enneagrams, Myers-Briggs, I’ve taken them all. I’ve taught several of them. I’m a fan of the fact that they do help you get an indicator, StrengthsFinder, of kind of maybe some of the way you’re naturally wired. However, biblically speaking, God is a God of growth and redemption. And so do not use your DiSC profile or your stupid Enneagram number to wish away the flaws in your character. So for example, I’m naturally pretty aggressive. I’m naturally fairly stubborn. I’m naturally willing to talk before I listen, all of which is shown to be marks of a fool in the Bible. So I can’t go, “Well, I’m just an Enneagram Eight. You’re going to have to sit there and listen the whole time I talk and I’m never going to listen to you,” because that’s unbiblical, it’s unwise. So, okay, all you guys out there dying on your Enneagram hill, look, it’s an indicator. It’s an indicator. It can be a useful tool, just like a screwdriver is a useful tool in the hands of a mechanic. In the hands of a four-year-old, it’s just dangerous. And so really, really be careful with the labels that we put on ourselves or the labels that others put on us that are not, do not take into account God’s redemptive power. I still wrestle with anger. It’s not because I’m an Enneagram Eight, it’s because I’m a jerk. The fruit of the spirit… Even what’s funny, Lawson, look at how we use the language around these topics. We say things like, “I’m naturally wired.” Go back and listen to the podcast. I said naturally like four times. What is our nature called? Our nature is called sinful. And so there’s a difference between the way I’m naturally wired and the things that the Holy Spirit wants to do through me, wants to do through me. The fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, yes, even for an Enneagram Eight, gentleness. So I just want to be really cautious with this whole drama. We have the last probably 50, 60 years in modern psychology about we are how we test out. No, we might be at that moment and those are great indicators, but man, I want us to make sure we’re not giving more credence to the personality profile than we are to God’s holy spirit in our heart to work through us, because man, I got to be different. If I’m going to build deeper relationships, I’ve got to be a better listener. I just need to.

Lawson Brown:
Yeah. And I’ll throw something back out to tie it up, and that is you used a radio station, I would say, if you are a dad and you buy in to the thought that it is you gain a lot of value from other guys, that you are in a position where you don’t have to do this alone, that you get to do it with other people. God’s already got other people lined up and on their way to join you in this fatherhood journey, then look, you don’t have to figure it all out in advance and execute to a certain specific way. What you should do is be open. That’s it. Kent, you said something in another podcast before about your articular resonating something and other with your brain.

Kent Evans:
That’s exactly what I said.

Lawson Brown:
But basically when you go and buy a red Camry or red whatever car, all of a sudden you see it everywhere. In the same thing, if you become interested in a topic like let’s say golf, I think we’ve talked about that before, next thing you know, you’re noticing guys with a golf logo on their shirt, or you’re seeing a billboard, because your antenna is up and you are open to receiving. So I would close with that. If you want to be in a fatherhood journey with other guys, they’re going to bring different skills, different experiences, different godly perspectives into your life and the life of your children, then look for it. God’s already got this figured out. He’s got it lined up. It’s out there waiting on you. Go get it.

Kent Evans:
Way to go. Lawson. Guys, we’ll see you next week. Thanks for listening in.

Kent Evans:
Hey Dad, thank you for listening to today’s show. If you found this episode helpful, remember you can get all the content and show notes at manhoodjourney.org/podcast. And if you really liked it, please consider doing three things. Number one, share this podcast with someone. You can hit the share button in your app, wherever you listen to podcasts, or just call the person up and tell them to listen in. Number two, subscribe to this podcast so you get episodes automatically. That helps us as well to help dads find the show. You can do that through your favorite listening app, whatever that is. And finally, review this podcast, leave us a review, good or bad wherever you listen. Those reviews also help other dads find the show. You can always learn more about what we’re up at manhoodjourney.org or fatheronpurpose.org. We will see you next week.

Voiceover:
You’ve been to dozing off to the Father on Purpose podcast, featuring Kant Evans and Lawson Brown. Now, wake up, head over to fatheronpurpose.org for more tools that can help you be a godly, intentional and not completely horrible dad. Remember, you are not a father on accident, so go be a father on purpose.