How One Dad Sought Counsel from Another Dad

Show Transcripts:

Voiceover:

Welcome to the Father on Purpose Podcast, featuring author and ministry leader Kent Evans and business executive and military veteran Lawson Brown. This is a show for you, dad. You want to be a godly and intentional father? Unfortunately, you’ve turned to these two knuckleheads for help. Let us know how that works out for you. Before we begin, remember this, you are not a father on accident. So go be a father on purpose. Please welcome your hosts, Kent and Lawson.

 

Kent Evans:

Hey, Lawson. How are you, man?

 

Lawson Brown:

What’s up? I’m fantastic.

 

Kent Evans:

I’m recently at lunch with a guy named Eric and he did something. I would say Eric is probably late thirties, late thirties plus or minus, married, few kids, and he did something at our lunch that very few men I bump into can do. Guess what that was?

 

Lawson Brown:

Did it have anything to do with food or what you were eating? Like the most jalapeno poppers in five minutes?

 

Kent Evans:

No.

 

Lawson Brown:

Narrow it down.

 

Kent Evans:

It doesn’t have to do with how much food he ate. It has to do with the way he talked to me. Guess what that thing was?

 

Lawson Brown:

No idea.

 

Kent Evans:

A little bit of context, I was introduced to Eric by a mutual friend who happened to be his own dad. I knew his dad before I knew Eric. I’m getting to that age where my buddies all have like grown adult children with children. A lot of my lunches are no longer with like college aged kids trying to find a job. They are with 38 year olds trying to raise a family.

 

Lawson Brown:

Yeah.

 

Kent Evans:

Yeah, so there we go. There’s a sign of the times, baby. I showed up to this lunch and what was very interesting about the way Eric talked to me is Eric did two or three things most guys in their thirties either cannot or will not do. Number one, Eric had a lot of questions. He came not trying to impress me with his brilliance and with his success and his perfect family record and all that. He came with a basket full of questions.

 

Lawson Brown:

Dude, that’s so awesome you’re bringing that up. The same thing happened to me two weeks ago-

 

Kent Evans:

No way!

 

Lawson Brown:

Yes. When I was traveling with my wife, we went and visited her sister and her husband, my brother-in-law, who had with them at their house visiting, this sounds convoluted, their daughter and…

 

Kent Evans:

She had a cousin [crosstalk 00:02:36]

 

Lawson Brown:

It started sounding like that. No. Dylan is my, I guess, niece in law or nephew in law. He married my niece, anyway.

 

Kent Evans:

Holly, can you get to the point?

 

Lawson Brown:

Yes, I’m sorry. Oh, Lordie. And same way, just you can see… He’s so much more mature than I was at his age, and I think it’s a combination of a lot of things. But for sure what stood out to me while I was together with him for those three, four days was just how open-minded he was and how many questions he asked of not just me, but more so his father-in-law, Bo, and he actually listened. He would ask a question and then listen. You can tell he’s doing something to better himself. He’s about to become a new dad.

 

Lawson Brown:

It was very rewarding and also one of those instances where you feel a little like, okay, good, this generation’s got some stars among it, some bright spots.

 

Kent Evans:

Oh, these kids today, whippersnappers, these whippersnappers. I want to come back to you and ask you what were some of the questions. Be thinking about that, Lawson, because people who listened to this podcast might think you and I have this long drawn out set up meeting where we talk about how we’re going to say and then you go, “Hey, same thing happened to me two weeks ago,” and then I play surprise and go, “Really,” like we worked all this out. We didn’t. If you’re coming here expecting a perfectly scripted podcast episode, we’re going to probably have to ask you just to move along. Move along. Find a different podcast. But what we’d like to do is have these conversations about meaningful topics and then see where they go. I didn’t know you were going to say that about your brother-in-law’s sister’s uncle’s husband’s cousin twice removed on the other side of the family from the wrong side of the tracks. I thought it was going to be somebody else.Anyways, what also I found interesting about Eric was not only did he have a lot of questions, he was really transparent. And I don’t mean like he was sharing his deepest, darkest secrets and he was telling me all about the time when he was seven and his dad never told him he loved him. There wasn’t deep psychological disclosure. But what I mean by transparency is, man, he was just real. He just didn’t seem like he needed to impress me. He was just like kind of getting down to business.He’s like, “All right. My dad told me I should meet you and tell me how you and your wife managed the early years when your kids were really young and you all were exhausted and you got into fights over stuff that didn’t matter at all.” I was like, “Really? We’re going to start there? I love this guy. I love this guy.”

 

Lawson Brown:

Good for him. It’s cool when something that authentic happens. You said transparent, but there’s no like… He genuinely truly wants to know. No pretense.

 

Kent Evans:

Yeah. It was a blast. What were some of the questions that your friend asked you recently, or where did that conversation go?

 

Lawson Brown:

I mean, he’s an introspective kind of person, generally speaking, but nothing really profound. It was just in conversation. When you said that, it reminded me of him and the way that he just approaches or how he was in those times. What do you see in me that you think I can work on before I become a father? I’m like, “Come on, man.”

 

Kent Evans:

I love that guy, and you said, “Well, step one, listen to this I’m doing about a fatherhood. Are you a subscriber yet? If you’re not, you’re a horrible dad.” I mean, step one, obviously if you’re not a subscriber to the Father on Purpose Podcast and you’re probably going to be a father off purpose… I mean, that’s a really, really rich question. For a little bit of context, did you and this person have a whole lot of like relational water under the bridge? Is this like a five or 10 or 20 year relationship that you were kind of dropping us into the middle of the stream on, or how long have you known this guy?

 

Lawson Brown:

Under five years.

 

Kent Evans:

Wow! That’s awesome.

 

Lawson Brown:

To me, it’s less about what specifically was he after and what kind of conversations do we have, and more of it was really rewarding for me to see that someone who is married to someone I care so much about, my niece, is so genuinely authentically interested in not going on the journey alone and being open-minded enough to say, “I’m going to need some people. I’m going to need some counsel. I’m going to be reaching out. I understand the importance of surrounding myself with others who care about our future and what I can do.”

 

Kent Evans:

Man, no kidding. Right. It’s not just the actual questions. It’s just the posture, just the predisposition. Because you know that person, if they’re walking through life as a learner and they find themselves in these different moments where they’re trying to learn, there’s probably no door that’s going to be locked to them. They’re going to open all these doors. What was very interesting to me is I do have a bit of a longstanding passion in this area. I’ve written a book about wise counsel and all that, so I love that topic. But I can say with all honesty, this guy who I’m referencing, Eric, didn’t know me and had never read my book. It wasn’t like he came trying to impress the wise counsel guy. What I think is very interesting is I found our lunch to be really refreshing. It was very different than a lot of lunches I have where most guys are trying to posture and position themselves. You tell me your story and your story ends with a hundred, my story will end with a thousand, whatever it is, right? I’m just going to try to beat you. We’re always competing and all that kind of stuff, and it’s exhausting. One thing I would love to touch on and I know you’ve done this because I know some of the guys who represent this circle for you, but over your adult life, Lawson, you’ve been intentional about finding guys that can be sources of wisdom for you. One of the things that I would love to have a dad who listens to this podcast, what I’d love to have him kind of fall in love with is the idea that if he’s trying to be a father all by himself and he has nobody around him, man, it’s going to be much harder. And fatherhood is hard enough. It’s hard enough. I would love to take this episode and talk about a few things in light of my lunch with Eric. Number one, what does it take to become the kind of guy who can surround himself with good counsel, with an army of people? Number two, what are some barriers to that? What are some things that tend to get in the way? We’ve talked a little bit about some of them now? And then number three, I’d love to talk probably after the break, but I’d love to talk about specifically what are a few beginner steps? If you’re listening to this podcast and you think, “Oh yeah, of course, like the super uber spiritual, they got people around them. But I’m just like a brand new Christian or I’m not even a Christian. I don’t believe all this Bible stuff, but I kind of sense the idea that you all are making sense that I can learn from other people. How do I do that,” I think some guys might find this whole topic somewhat either intimidating or irrelevant. And man, I hope by the time we’re done with this episode, neither of those things are true.

 

Lawson Brown:

You said something about posture and you found it in Eric. I did it with Dylan. What that posture was lacking was this facade of no problem, which is a tip. We’ve all done it many times. Guys like to be strong. We like to be in charge and in control. You’ve got to be able to really from a heart standpoint realize that what you’re going through and what you’re struggling with is pretty common. Other people have done it. They’ve been successful at it or they’ve not and found the potholes. Just that conversation is what you’re after. I agree with you. I think people may be listening to this and just think that this is a pretty daunting topic. They don’t know. What in the world? How do I reach out? Where do I find them? What do I need to even begin talking about? Maybe after the break, we can break that down into some pretty simple kind of thoughts. Because with anything, getting started, just take a start, take a step toward a start, is the important thing because God will help and you’ll figure it out. You can’t stay stuck. I think just doing something is a good place to maybe kick off.

 

Kent Evans:

I think one scripture verse comes to mind when we get on this particular topic. Several do, but one that comes to mind is Proverbs 24:6, and it says, “For by wise guidance, you can wage your war. And in an abundance of counselors, there is victory.” By wise guidance, you can wage your war, and in an abundance of counselors, there is victory. I want to make sure that, dad, if you’re listening to this podcast, you don’t say to yourself, “Well, I mean, I don’t wage war. I’m not like a general in an army, and I’m not out shooting guns at the bad guys.”

 

Kent Evans:

But I think spiritually speaking, you’re in a war every day. You’re in a war every day. We’ve talked about that before that, dad, you’re in a battle. You’re in a battle against the forces of evil. You’re often in a battle against the forces of kind of modern culture. But I repeat myself, you’re in the battle and you’re in the battle as yourself, as you’re growing as a dad. In the last couple of weeks, I’ve made some situations around my house worse by how I engaged in those situations. I took what might have been a four level problem and I turned it into a seven or eight level problem by the way I engaged the problem. I’m waging a battle against Kent trying to become a better version of myself over time. I’m waging a battle on many fronts, many fronts. And that verse would tell me in an abundance of counselors, there is victory. Lawson, who are some of the guys you think back on where you’re like, “Man, when I think of abundance of counselors,” before we hit the break, who are some of the guys that come to mind and how did they counsel you? Maybe it’s like a brief snapshot.

 

Lawson Brown:

Yeah. There was a list early on from church, from Southeast, when I first got baptized as a I think early thirties age. I was a late starter. Man, I was so fortunate. Guys like Murphy Belding came out of the woodwork and saw a guy that was floating around, kind of drifting around looking for understanding. He swam out to me and grabbed me up. Shane was another one, you, Van Anderson. When you said abundance, I immediately pictured in my life currently I need to have 20 plus active, engaging people. It’s more over time. I’ve had 20, 25, 30, because you go through ebbs and flows. You go through seasons. You move physically from one place to another. Yeah, I guess I’ve really been super fortunate to have had that abundance. I have looked. I have been active. I have put myself out there. I would say, and we can hit on it and we would come back, I knew I had a need. I needed to discern exactly more so maybe what those needs were. I think that’s a good place to start, like what are you looking for? What do you feel like you need? Pray and then be open. Listen. And then third, I’d say get over it. You’re going to have to ask. You’re going to have to put yourself out there a little bit. Don’t posture. Understand you’re not alone, and then God’s going to put somebody in your path.

 

Kent Evans:

And I want to clarify, I want to clarify one thing, you said you got baptized, and then Murphy Belding swam out to get you. Was that at the same time? Is the baptistry that big? I mean, I know Southeast is a big church, but.

 

Lawson Brown:

It was pretty big at that Southeast big church.

 

Kent Evans:

Did you have to have someone come and rescue you in the middle of the baptistry? I now baptize you, and then I’m going to leave you. You’re going to have to swim back to shore. I don’t want to be baptized. On the flip side of the break, I want to talk about the reticular activating system. People are probably… Guys are like, “Wow! I just got dropped into like a biology podcast.” Well, kind of. Let’s talk about how that thing can work for you and how you can hijack your brain to find some great counsel after this.

 

Kent Evans:

Hey, dad, every week it can seem like you’re climbing a mountain, you have things to do. And Manhood Journey and Father on Purpose are here to help you climb that mountain with a free weekly newsletter we call Mountain Monday. What it is, is it is a short bite-sized reminder every Monday of important things. We walk through some scripture together. We throw out our recent blog posts. We throw you some quotes. We give you a challenge. This Monday morning newsletter is free, totally free, and you can sign up today at manhoodjourney.org. Come to manhoodjourney.org and sign up for Mountain Monday. And every Monday morning, get some encouragement for your fatherhood journey.

 

Lawson Brown:

Okay, we’re back. And for those of you who are still with us, because we probably lost however many of the audience we had when you spitted out that octocular, reticulating, recycling something.

 

Kent Evans:

I wish I can help you.

 

Lawson Brown:

You were on a roll, and then it was like, “Huh? What are you talking about?”

 

Kent Evans:

When my son and I went to Orlando a couple of years ago, I was speaking at a men’s event there, and we decided to rent a car. Well, not decided. We needed to rent a car, and we happened to get, I think, it was red or black, but it was a Mazda CX5. We’d never driven in that car, and it had this cool kind of like features. And of course, it had like 2,000 miles on it. Rental cars are great, right? They’re brand new. They smell new. We get in this car and we’re in Orlando for about four days. And guess what we started noticing on the road, Lawson?

 

Lawson Brown:

CX5s everywhere.

 

Kent Evans:

Everywhere. Everywhere. And what’s fascinating about that process is I’m sure it’s not like the CX5 just came out that day. It wasn’t like day one off the assembly line. We’d probably driven past thousands of CX5s, right? We just started noticing them all of a sudden, and it’s because of the part of our brain… I went later and learned why that is. It’s so fascinating to me, why is that, and it’s the reticular activating system. Essentially it’s connected to… It’s where your brain and your eyes start to notice things and where they stop noticing things. You should be really grateful that you have this feature in your brain or you’d go crazy, right?

 

Lawson Brown:

It’s a filter, right?

 

Kent Evans:

It’s a filter.

 

Lawson Brown:

I recently decided I’m going to get back into golf, and now I see it everywhere because I’m interested, I’m doing some research, and running across people that are either talking about it or wearing something, or I noticed a commercial, anyway.

 

Kent Evans:

Yeah. You have told your brain without saying it out loud, you’ve told your brain, “Hey, start noticing something.” For example, the experiment that we can play with, if you’re driving down the road, I know a lot of people listen to podcasts while they’re driving down the road, or you’re traveling, you’re commuting, you’re on a train, I want you to start noticing red cars. Red cars. There you go, red cars. And if you just say, “I’m going to start noticing red cars,” all of a sudden, in the next 20 seconds, you’re probably going to pass nine of them. And you would not have noticed them because your brain is doing you a favor by having you only notice certain things at a time so you don’t get overwhelmed with the number of inputs that you have. Here’s how that connects to finding counsel and having an abundance of counselors in your life. You may say to yourself, “Okay, I’m going to start noticing mentors.” Well, no. Don’t do that. Instead, let’s talk about something that you want to improve at. And again, it could be something super mechanical and simple, like you want to lose weight, or you want to hit a golf ball farther, or you want to become a better gardener, whatever it is, it’s a skill, a thing you want to learn. It could be that it’s a slightly higher level or higher order relational skill, like you want to become a better listener, or you want to be get better at asking questions, or you want to be someone who is more intentional in the kinds of questions that you ask or the people you associate, wherever it might be. It might be a simple task, or it may be a more complex task. Soon as you decide what it is you want to improve at, you’re going to find mentors and resources. People come out of the woodwork. As an example, Lawson, you brought up wanting to get back into golf. I’ll bet you probably have started to notice… You are at a cookout or something, and you’ll notice some guy’s shirt and the logo on the shirt looks like it might be a logo from a golf club. You never would have noticed that had you not been thinking about getting back into golf, right?

 

Lawson Brown:

Yeah. And six months ago, I wouldn’t have not only noticed, I probably wouldn’t have gone and approached that person about golf obviously.

 

Kent Evans:

I want to give the dad who’s listening to this podcast two gifts, two gifts, as we’re talking about this topic. Gift number one is stop looking for the mentor. Stop looking for the mentor. You may find some guy who kind of has his act together and is a great husband and he’s had some business success, or he is really good with scripture, or he’s a very talented pastor. He’s got a great prayer life, solid marriage, great kids, whatever. You may find the kind of triple threat guy who has a lot of things going for him, and you want that guy to become one of your inner circle kind of guys. And more power to you if you find that guy. Absolutely. I have a couple like that in my life that I could probably go to them on 10 different topics and they’d have something articulate to say and they could help me. However, that guy is a bit of a unicorn. That guy’s a bit of a unicorn. There’s a lot of pressure implicit in like, well, if you can teach me about marriage and finance and prayer, then I got to meet with you every day and every week. It becomes this like super enmeshed relationship that you may not have time for. And he may not have time for, so stop looking for the mentor. That’s gift number one. Gift number two, don’t necessarily look for mentors at all. Don’t even necessarily look for a mentor. Instead, instead, let’s identify a few areas where you want to grow that are meaningful areas, that are meaningful areas. If you want to learn how to change the oil in your car, you just go watch a YouTube video, right? It’s pretty straightforward. But if you want to become a more compassionate listener, or you want to become a more loving husband, or you want to become someone who is slower to anger around your house, or whatever, it’s a higher order problem, it’s kind of a bigger challenge than just changing the oil in your car, it’s probably going to take a series of conversations and a number of different inputs. You can listen to a podcast like this one. You could read some scripture. You could pray. You could pull your wife in on the play. You can pull your kids in on the play when they’re old enough. There’s a multi-frontal assault on your spiritual growth area. But here’s what I promise you, I promise you here’s what’s going to happen. Let’s say for the sake of argument, you want to become a more loving husband. Not that you or I, Lawson, have any room to grow in this area. I’m basically speaking for a friend who wants to become a more loving husband. What you’re going to do with your brain and your reticular activating system is you’re going to tell your brain to start noticing the subtle little cues that other people give off that you can learn from. What’s going to happen is you say, “I want to be more loving husband.” And then this week you’re going to be at a school function, or you’re going to be at one of your kid’s sporting events, or you’re going to be at your Sunday school class at your church, and for the very first time, that couple that you’ve seen a hundred times, you’re going to notice that couple sitting in the row in front of you, and you’re going to notice, “Wow! He’s got his arm around her, or they just interlock their hands and they’re holding hands and they’ve been married like 30 years. They’re not like newlyweds fawning all over each other.” You’re going to start to notice subtle little cues that your brain will go to work for you and notice all by itself. All by itself. So really the first piece of this puzzle is not go looking for the mentor, not go looking for really any mentor necessarily, but let’s find the areas where we want to grow, and then let our brain start to do some of the work for us. Is this clicking, Lawson? Do you think this is making sense to our listeners?

 

Lawson Brown:

I do, and you explained that really well. I would add, don’t overcomplicate it. You don’t have to solve everything. Land on one or two, and then your antenna go up, which is my version of the reticular, ocular, whatever.

 

Kent Evans:

P31 space modulator.

 

Lawson Brown:

Yeah, please. But you’re right. You’re at a school function or you’re at Target and you see some guy do something for his wife that just catches your eye, whatever it may be, and that’s going to register. Do you need to replicate that? Now, maybe not, but it’s reinforcing to you. And is that guy your mentor? Now you found them. No.

 

Kent Evans:

Excuse me, sir. I noticed you in the linen section say something nice to your wife.

 

Lawson Brown:

Right. Would you like to be my mentor?

 

Kent Evans:

I followed you out to your car and I have a question for you. No, don’t do that. No, but you are hitting on a point. Let’s say for the sake of argument that you have someone that is kind of a… You have access to somebody. What I mean by that is that their kids are on the same team or they go to your church. It’s a guy at work. It’s not some random stranger at the Walmart. But let’s say you find that guy and you notice, you’re thinking, “I want to be a more loving husband,” and you notice, “Man, they really seem to have a solid marriage. I’m sure it’s not perfect. They probably had their moments.” But then what do you do? I think this is where a lot of guys feel super intimidated and they feel super self-conscious. Here’s what you do. Here’s what you do. I will give you the recipe for the very next step. If you want more godly counsel in your life, here’s what you do. You find that guy. When he gets up to go get his coffee at Sunday school, you get up to get your own coffee and you say, “Hey, Lawson, could you and I meet for coffee this week? I have a couple of questions I want to run past you about marriage,” and he’s going to say absolutely, and then you meet him for coffee. I think the best godly counsel tool that we’ve been given in the last 25 years is probably Starbucks, meaning it’s just so easy to sit down across… The first business I ever started, which we lasted about two or three years and I was a consultant, and it was not an entrepreneurial success by any stretch, but it was a blast. I had a lot of fun doing it. The very first business I started, I remember going to a seminar and hearing a guy talk about leadership or something like that. I thought, “Man, he’s a really sharp guy.” He was an elder at our church. About a day or two after the event, I got his number and I just called him up. And I said, “Hey, man. You were talking about leadership. I know you used to have a job where you worked full time, and now you own your own company. That’s a path I might like to go down. Can I buy you lunch?” And sure enough, man, I have now known that guy… I’d have to go back and do a little math, but it’s way over 20 years. It’s over 20 years that I’ve known that guy that I just said, “Hey man, can I pick your brain? You’ve done something I haven’t done. Can I learn from you?” I can still remember the metaphor he used at our very first lunch at the Italian restaurant that helped me understand how to go from employment to self-employment. It was brilliant, and it’s been at least 20 years ago. Guys, dad, if you’re thinking, “Hey, man, I’d love to have some more godly counsel in my life. I just don’t know how to get started,” it doesn’t have to be super complicated, Lawson.

 

Lawson Brown:

Yeah. I’ve written down a couple of things just as you’ve been going through that, which is great. I’ve also found that if you’re open and have your antennas up, you’re discerning, you have honed in on things that you’re hungry for, it’s interesting how many times they will come to you. It’s not all on you. I’ve had something on my heart many times in the past. At work or wherever, some other guy says something to me like, “Yeah, I don’t know, man. I just had a rough night last night. I yelled at the kids, and it was stupid. And then my wife and I got in a fight and I’ve just got to…”

 

Kent Evans:

Whoa! Whoa, Lawson. Hold it. Hold it. You said you weren’t going to tell that story about me on air. You know we’re recording, right? You know this is like actually being recorded? Wow. What a jerk.

 

Lawson Brown:

But listen, trust God. He will send people your way. That’s one. The other is you will be pleasantly surprised by how many people want to help, that they are open to doing this together because they also feel a combination of wanting to give back if they’re seasoned and have gone through some things, but also because they too want to feel like they’re in something with someone. Encourage you to, yeah, it may feel a little daunting and like, how do I start? Pray about it. Listen to yourself. What you feel like you may want to fill as a gap or a weakness, and then trust God to help you fill it if you will take that step.

 

Kent Evans:

Yeah, you got it, man. Dads, as you’re thinking on this topic, I want you to evaluate as we close your RTC. And you may think, “Man, is he talking about other biology?” No, I just made that term up, and I call it your resistance to counsel quotient. What is your RTC factor and how high is it? Are you open to having other men speak into your life? And if not, why not? Let’s get that problem solved and let’s go surround ourselves. As we saw earlier today in Proverbs 24:6, let’s go surround ourselves with an abundance of counselors, an abundance of counselors. I pray that you’ll do that, because I know you are not a father on accident. So get out there and be a father on purpose. Have a great week. We’ll see you next time.

 

Kent Evans:

Hey, dad. Thank you for listening to today’s show. If you found this episode helpful, remember, you can get all the content and show notes at manhoodjourney.org/podcast. And if you really liked it, please consider doing three things. Number one, share this podcast with someone. You can hit the share button in your app, wherever you listen to podcasts, or just call the person up and tell them to listen in. Number two, subscribe to this podcast so you get episodes automatically. That helps us as well to help dads find the show. You can do that through your favorite listening app, whatever that is. And finally, review this podcast. Leave us a review, good or bad, wherever you listen. Those reviews also help other dads find the show. You can always learn more about what we’re up to at manhoodjourney.org or fatheronpurpose.org. We will see you next week.

 

Voiceover:

You’ve been dozing off to the Father on Purpose Podcast, featuring Kant Evans and Lawson Brown. Now wake up! Head over to fatheronpurpose.org for more tools back and help you be a godly, intentional, and not completely horrible dad. Remember, you are not a father on accident. So go be a father on purpose.