Does Prayer Really “Work”?

Show Transcripts:

Intro:
Welcome to the Father On Purpose Podcast, featuring author and ministry leader, Kent Evans and business executive and military veteran Lawson Brown. This is a show for you, dad. You want to be a godly and attentional father. Unfortunately, you’ve turned to these two knuckleheads for help. Let us know how that works out for you. Before we begin, remember this, you are not a father on accident, so go be a father on purpose. Please welcome your hosts, Kent and Lawson.

Kent Evans:
Hey, Lawson. As it relates to our podcast, guess what is about to happen?

Lawson Brown:
I don’t know.

Kent Evans:
We’re going to hit a thousand downloads.

Lawson Brown:
A what?

Kent Evans:
A thousand downloads. Now, I understand in the world of millions and billions, that sounds like a small number. However, I want a hat tip to my wife who keeps clicking that download button so hard, I mean, she’s gotten some tendonitis in her finger from the 997 clicks.

Lawson Brown:
Wow, that’s actually-

Kent Evans:
Yeah, just a couple of months. I’m pumped about that.

Lawson Brown:
That’s not bad. Yeah, [crosstalk 00:01:16].

Kent Evans:
No, not at all. Thanks to all the dads out there who are listening in, who are joining us on this podcast journey who are sharing the content with their friends, their neighbors, their bosses, their animals, their social media outlets. Please let guys know, if this podcast is at all useful to you, number one, Lawson and I are both shocked. Secondly, please share it.

Lawson Brown:
Dude, that’s really good news. I’m glad to hear that. So does that mean from a sponsor standpoint that we can just start randomly making up that we have big name sponsors like, brought to you by Tesla-

Kent Evans:
Absolutely, absolutely.

Lawson Brown:
Or Ford trucks, something like that? How much trouble would we get into from a marketing standpoint, if we just start making up big names … Decent guys, they’re trying to do a little good there. Like, “Okay, you’re getting our name out there. We’re not paying for it.” Or would they slap us down and all of a sudden we’re out of business?

Kent Evans:
I mean, I think we’d probably get some nice letters from attorneys on that really nice paper-

Lawson Brown:
[crosstalk 00:02:26].

Kent Evans:
… that has the weave in it.

Lawson Brown:
Certified, you’ve been … yeah.

Kent Evans:
“You’ve been served. Please stop mentioning my client’s name in your podcast.”

Lawson Brown:
Nevermind then, that takes half of my show notes away. I had all kinds of good stuff planned.

Kent Evans:
Thanks, anyway. Today, here’s what we’re talking about. We have been in a series, we’re right in the middle of a series, on the ebook that we published earlier this year at the time of the recording called Survival Gear: 7 Must-Have Tools Every Dad For His Journey. And we talked about trusting God already. We talked about knowing scripture back in the last couple episodes. And in today’s episode, we’re going to talk about the third thing in that list, those seven tools, and it is praying fervently. So if we want to be godly dads, we’re going to have to become prayer warriors, if we’re not already. I don’t know if you’ve ever had this question Lawson, but I’m asking for a friend, I’m asking for a friend, but I have had my friend ask me, “Does prayer actually work?” If you can’t see the … Well, we’re not even publishing video, so clearly you’re not seeing a video, but I got my air quote fingers rocking. Does prayer actually work? Have you ever wondered that yourself or has a friend of yours ever wondered that Lawson?

Lawson Brown:
Right, oh yeah. And who’s listening, or is someone really listening? I would trace it back to … I don’t know. I think you walked up on the pool and you walked to the far deep in and just jumped right in. I think we need to back up a little bit and maybe enter the shallow end a little easier than does it work? That is the big question.

Kent Evans:
Look, man, I don’t have time to be wading into pools an inch deep now.

Lawson Brown:
All right. Well have fun down there trying to swim in the deep end without your floaties. I think, what do you mean work? What does work mean to someone, is what I would wonder. We’ve all had that thought. I akin prayer to communicating with someone … early on my prayers were different than they are today. I was early in my relationship. I wasn’t sure what to do, how to do it. Wasn’t really sure who I was talking to, how He listened. So, it was a tentative conversation, you know?

Kent Evans:
Yeah.

Lawson Brown:
It was, how do I do this? What do you want to know? Is somebody listening? It was, is this thing on? So maybe that’s a different question, a different way to ask, does it work? I wasn’t even sure what to do.

Kent Evans:
Well, and I think that’s really in my book, the Manhood Journey, I talk about this topic as if we’re asking the question maybe a bit wrongly. In other words, that’s the reason why I like that question even though to your point, yeah it can feel like it’s deep water, but I think it comes down to what do you mean by work? So I think a lot of us tend to treat prayer, kind of like this vending machine. When I was in college, I’m a little ashamed to admit this. However, I’m also a little proud at the same time. I figured out how to bend a coat hanger just correctly, where I could go up under the drop drawer of a vending machine at the bottom and put the coat hanger up on a row and yank those little spiral things and get about four or five Twix bars all at once for nothing.

Kent Evans:
So, University of Kentucky, I probably owe you about 487 Twix bars, I apologize. I don’t think the University of Kentucky or Twix is going to sponsor us anytime soon.

Lawson Brown:
Dang.

Kent Evans:
I know, it’s too bad, but what we treat prayer like is almost like that, right? It’s a vending machine. I put my prayer in, I deposit my prayer in, and then I stand there and watch the machine twirl and wonder, “Am I going to get what I wanted out of the bottom?” We’ve all had that experience where you put money in and nothing happens, or you fat finger the number and instead of getting a Twix bar, you get something disgusting, like a Milky Way. So you get the wrong thing and so you stand there mad at the machine, as if the machine did something wrong. I think that’s the way a lot of men, a lot of dads, approach the topic of prayer. It’s this thing that they do, because on the other end, something happens magically. And if that’s something doesn’t happen exactly right, then they say prayer doesn’t work. Have you ever had that experience?

Lawson Brown:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), many times. Yeah, for sure. And still do, just like with … I’ll relate it back to what I said earlier about the relationship. If God is with us, we’re communicating with Him and the only thing we ever do is go to Him with a, “Here’s what’s happening. And here’s what I need.” And then look with eyes of expectation on where is it coming out of the machine. That’s not a relationship, that is that God is useful to us for the needs that we believe that we have. I think through trial and error, through developing a better relationship not just with God, but a better, I guess, communication stream with Him, through it says fervently, pray fervently, that means often and diligently and deeply. You begin to understand and hear from Him what He wants, it’s a two way. But yeah, I have stood in front of the vending machine and put in my needs and then stood there. And it’s like, “I don’t think this is even plugged in.” I’m just standing there looking like …

Kent Evans:
Have you ever approached it with a coat hanger?

Lawson Brown:
Hello?

Kent Evans:
Maybe that’s what people are not doing correctly. So one of the verses I love to dive into whenever I’m talking about prayer or even thinking about it myself, is I love to look at this verse because I love it when there’s a connection in scripture, between something that I do and then something that God does. I love those connections and it’s not that I want a Ferrari, so I get a Ferrari. It’s not how it works, but what I love about this verse. If you’re driving down the road don’t try to look it up right now, but I want you to remember Philippians four, six and seven. Philippians four, six, and seven, because there is a promise. There’s a promise contained in that stretch, that really talks about prayer and it working. Let me read this to you, Lawson. I want you to react to it. So Philippians four, six and seven says, “Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, let your request be made known to God.” So step one, don’t be anxious, instead pray to God. And then verse seven says, “And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ, Jesus.” And the promise that I see in that is 100% of the time, so if we want to know if something works, 100% of the time, we have access to this prayer to God that will result in the peace of God guarding our hearts and our minds in Christ, Jesus. So when I pray, I can almost see it coming. The peace of God will guard my heart and my mind. What does that verse make you think of when you think of prayer, Lawson? That peace of God guarding our hearts and our minds.

Lawson Brown:
I heard a pastor this past weekend say, “Anxiety can’t exist in prayer. It wipes it out.” But what this doesn’t say is in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God, and those requests will be answered as you submit them.

Kent Evans:
In the order in which they are received, please hold.

Lawson Brown:
Right.

Kent Evans:
We’re currently experiencing very high prayer volumes. Your approximate wait time is 42 minutes.

Lawson Brown:
Yeah. In the case of the Old Testament … That was where this guy, this past week, we’re searching for churches down here, it’s been great. My daughter actually found this one, Olivia found it, it’s good, but on the drive back, it was just me and her for a reason, Audrey was out of town. We were like, “God, everything in the Old Testament was, ‘They walked through the desert for 20 years and Joseph was enslaved for two decades.’ ” I’m like, “Talk about waiting on prayers to be answered.”

Kent Evans:
Exactly.

Lawson Brown:
But what it says is what this says is you, we, don’t be anxious. Go to Him in prayer, let Him know what’s on our heart with Thanksgiving because we can do this. And He will in turn, give us peace, and guard our hearts and minds. That’s what He says. It’s not a submit your request and you receive the answer to that, to said request. It’s not a transaction.

Kent Evans:
Not a transaction. Man, that’s a great word, that’s a great word. So as you look at it, even as you started off early, you were talking about the difference between prayer as a transaction, but also just prayer as a relationship, a connection. So, I like to put things in earthly context so I can understand them a little better. If I went to my wife and said, “Hey, I’m going to communicate with you, and after I’m done communicating with you for five minutes, I expect you to bring me a sandwich.” And just said, “Look, I’m only communicating with you-”

Lawson Brown:
Yeah, interesting.

Kent Evans:
” … So that I get my sandwich,” or get something else. So we often look at prayer that way and one of the things you and I are going to address today on this episode is number one, prayer works if you know what you’re working for. If you understand that it’s not so much about getting prayer exactly right, as it is just getting it rolling. It’s not so much about expecting a very specific outcome about the thing we’ve prayed for, as much as it is about expecting the peace that will guard our hearts. We’re going to talk about all that today but one of the things I’d love for you to address Lawson, is when we look at this topic of prayer, how can we map? How can we map the idea of prayer and how it works in our earthly relationships? Your friends, or your wife, or your own children. If your child came to you and just said … If Lydia came to you and just said, “Dad, I’m now going to talk to you for four straight minutes, and then as soon as I’m done, give me the keys to the car.” And you just knew the only reason she’s talking to you is so she could get the keys to the car after, is that how we often approach prayer?

Lawson Brown:
Yeah, that’s an interesting thought. I guess turning it around like that, I hadn’t had that thought before, you know when the caller ID comes up and you’re like, “Oh boy, here we go.” Always has-

Kent Evans:
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, are you describing a call from me?

Lawson Brown:
No, relax.

Kent Evans:
Of course not, of course not.

Lawson Brown:
But what do they need this time? Prayer to me is our way to get to know Him. He already knows what’s on our heart, He knows everything about us, but He wants us to know him and to do that, you’ve got to talk, you got to communicate. That’s what it is, it’s not complicated. I am curious, in your case, you’ve … with as many children as you guys have, and the ways in which your children have come to you, how has your prayer life changed, because of … If you think a couple of things factor into how, what, how often and what we are talking with someone about. It is two things, one, your one-on-one relationship with that person, or in this case, praying to God and number two, who you are, where you are in your own personal journey and what’s going on in your life. And so, with those two factors as a dad, my prayer life evolved quickly upon the birth of our first daughter. It didn’t evolve quickly. In that moment, I became a father and God became more real to me in a different way and back to the Philippians, with pray with thanksgiving, in that mediate moment. How has your prayer life, maybe we talk about this on the other side of the break, but I do want to get into as a father, as a dad, with what’s going on in your own individual life, how your one-on-one relationship with God factors into it, and then what’s going on with your children. How does that change your prayer life?

Kent Evans:
Yeah. Well, let’s dive right into that on the flip side of this short break, in the middle of the episode, we’ll see you on the other side.

Kent Evans:
Hey dad, do you wrestle with anger? Man, I sure have and so have thousands of other dads in our email list. So what we did for those dads and for you, we built a special digital course called The Anger-Free Dad. This digital course is chock full of almost 50 assets, a bunch of teaching videos, a ton of PDF booklets and worksheets, so you can walk through and understand your anger triggers, the expectations underneath, and how to pull those out of your heart and mind so you can be a dad who is less angry and more at peace. If you take this course and you do not become less angry, you will get all of your money back. Plus we’ll send you some boxing gloves, so you can beat up the wall at your house with all of your mad anger. Dad, come take the Anger-Free Dad course today at manhoodjourney.org/anger-free-dad. That’s manhoodjourney.org/anger-free-dad.

Kent Evans:
You know Lawson, right before the break, you were asking about how my prayer life has been affected. We have five boys and now a daughter-in-law, so six children in our family, and they range from ages six to 22 at the time of this recording. I would say there’s been two big inputs in my prayer life, say the last decade. One input is the presence of all these kids around here and how much you pray for their safety, their knowledge, their wisdom, them to make wise choices, have great friends, et cetera, tons of things on my prayer list that would not have been on it if I were not a dad and we can dive more into what some of those are. But the second thing that really influenced my prayer life is, and this may turn into a book one day, maybe you and I could do a series of podcasts on it. I went through the New Testament and I pulled out every single reference that I could find to prayer. I literally put it in a spreadsheet. I’m actually looking at the spreadsheet on my computer right now, and I’ve found over 122, 123 different moments, about 125 different moments-

Lawson Brown:
Wow.

Kent Evans:
… that are related to prayer and in some of those, there’s more than one prayer in the middle, like John 17. There’s a lot of praying in John 17. So, let’s just say there’s 125 to 150 moments where we see prayers in the New Testament. What I found that was really super interesting about prayer in the New Testament, and I’m just going to say, it’s a general theme so those who are the Bible scholars that want to come and show me that one verse, I know, I know they’re all in my spreadsheet, but the general theme, here’s the general theme, we tend to pray on earth and in our Western culture, for things that are physical. Help me get that job, help me not have cancer, help my wife to overcome that illness. We tend to pray for our kids even, help them to pass their driver’s exam, get an A on that test, get into college, never move back home again, whatever we pray, we pray for something to happen that’s earthly and physical, and we can see the result. However, if you go looking through the New Testament, you’re going to find the vast majority of the prayers in the New Testament are for something spiritual that cannot be seen. It’s for courage, it’s for faith, it’s for unity, it’s for direction, it’s for wisdom. There are all these prayers, and that’s probably been the biggest gentle wind in my prayer life, where it’s not that I don’t ever pray for physical stuff. I’ve prayed for my wife’s health. I’ve prayed for my children’s health over and over. I’ve prayed for outcomes that you can see. But what I’ve also noticed is that the most valuable things, the things that lasts for eternity, the things that I really, really want in the hearts and minds of, for example, my children are things that you can’t see. It’s wisdom, that kind of stuff.

Lawson Brown:
Sometimes you don’t even know how to describe what it is, where in Romans it says that the holy spirit intercedes on our behalf. I’ve had, thankfully, not a whole lot of moments, but a few where something semi-tragic or could have turned bad. And I’m just at a complete loss. I don’t know who … all I know to do is run to my friend and look to God. I mean, as a friend, as a father, as the only place that could help. I’ve also early on, and even recently, just want to talk, and I don’t know where to begin. I’m remembering back to a really sweet moment before Christmas last year, where Audrey and the girls, we were all home, a lot was going on in our lives. It was maybe Christmas Eve, or the night before Christmas Eve. At any rate, we were all around. It was just, we had had dinner. We’re sitting around with a decaf and talking and we watched a sermon and it was amazing and hit my heart, but I didn’t really know exactly why or what, but I felt like we’re all together, this is a sweet spot moment, a highlight. I’m never going to forget it. Let’s pray. So, we all got on our knees around the coffee table and I didn’t plan it. I didn’t know what to say and I literally said, “God, I don’t know … I felt you wanting to talk to us, so we’re here.” I don’t know what to say, we’ve got nothing really … we don’t need something. I just thank you so much for being in our lives and for these girls. I hope we are offering encouragement to dads.” I hope that my heavenly Father was rewarded in the moment of, we just want to thank you for being in our lives and for helping us in everything that we do. We’re just here. We just love you and praise that you are here.

Kent Evans:
Man, that’s awesome. It sounds like you also were in that spot where you were praising Him and thanking Him, and you were also listening, what’s he want to say to you? I think often we go into prayer as if it’s this constant monologue and we need to be aware that it’s a dialogue and that God, through His spirit, can speak straight to us. That verse you were mentioning is in the list I have in front of me, it’s Romans 8:26, “But in the same way, the spirit also helps our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.” You know what’s interesting about that is for the dad listening, for the dad listening, who goes, “Oh yeah, for you two spiritual giants on the podcast, y’all are great prayer warriors.” He’s chalking it up to you and I are on some prayer mountain that he can’t reach. Here’s what I would love for that dad to know. You don’t have to get it right, you just have to get it rolling.

Lawson Brown:
I like that, yeah.

Kent Evans:
You don’t have to get it right. You just have to get it rolling.

Lawson Brown:
I would also comment that I usually feel like an ignorant novice, especially praying in front of someone. Like you said, there is no right way, but you’ve got … I shouldn’t say you got to start, but you should start. There’s something in it for you and there’s something in it for your family.

Kent Evans:
For sure, well and we saw that verse, we talked about … We hinted at it a minute ago and that was in James chapter five, 13 through 16, talks about the person who’s suffering. He’s got to pray, “Is anyone cheerful,” it says in verse 13, ” … that he is to sing praises in the same breath as prayer? Is anyone among you sick? Call for the elders.” And then later it says, “Confess your sins to one another, pray for one another so you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.” Or some translations render that as fervent, the fervent prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. I know a minute ago, you hesitated when you said, “Well, you have to … ” I think as a dad, we got to lay down the gauntlet, just a little. Dad, if you’re listening, your prayer life for your family really matters. It’s not just that it matters that you’re affecting outcomes, like your kids get into that college or find that spouse or overcome that challenge. It’s not just that it matters for their outcomes, but it matters for their spiritual formation as a believer in Christ. In other words, for your daughters, Lawson, to see you just go to God in a moment where you weren’t just suffering from some diagnosis, you didn’t just have a car wreck. It’s not just prayers of desperation, which are awesome, and God … I mean, nothing wrong with that. But when you had relative still water and things were going pretty good, you were motivated to pray in that moment. Goodness gracious, man, at your funeral, your daughters might be telling that story about how that shaped their prayer life. So as dads, I think it’s so important for us to understand that our approach to prayer will often become our kids’ approach to prayer.

Lawson Brown:
I’ve also gotten a lot out of hearing them pray, that’s just super … like our own kids and my wife. But like you said, the prayers of a fervent man, of a righteous man, man, how many times in your life have you been maybe in a small men’s group or something like that, and someone else leads the closing prayer of that hour-long session on Wednesday night, or whatever it is? Or I’ve had guys in my life, meet me at the hospital or meet me after a job interview and pray with and/or for me, and seeing that modeled has helped me. You get a lot out of seeing others pray. So, we’ve talked about it before, but putting yourself out there, being in relationship with other men, other fathers and being with them, they have different gifts, they have different abilities and you’re going to glean from being around them, things that they do. I have many times gone to someone and said, in a setting like that is what I’m remembering right now, is like in a small men’s group setting, is like, “Dude, you got to be the one to close this in prayer today because when you do, I just love it.” You know?

Kent Evans:
That’s awesome. Yeah, I have a brother-in-law and he has often prayed where I’ve been around, I don’t know, 50 times in our lifetime, one of the things that he’s prayed more than once, and just the way he says it has always resonated so deeply with me as a dad. He always says, not always but frequently says, “Dear God, would you please minimize the harm that we are doing as parents and maximize the good that we are doing as parents?” Man, I love that phrase because any dad out there who thinks he’s going to raise kids and that … and his own kids have no father wounds, have no resentments, have no like, “God, I wish my dad hadn’t been such a jerk.”

Lawson Brown:
You know?

Kent Evans:
You’re not immune from that, right? Your 23 year old kids are going to be in their small group at church saying something about your imperfection as a dad. Welcome to the club, that’s like time immemorial. That is true. So I just love that the spirit of that prayer is, “Look God, I know I’m doing some things wrong, man, could you help me block that out of my kid’s memory? Could you take that away so that I’m not a hindrance to them approaching you?” Then at the same time, I know I’m doing some things right. I’m not a complete bumbling fool here. So when I get it right, could you help them see that and see that that’s a grace you’re pouring out in their life. Not just me. I don’t need the credit. I just want them to know where that good thing came from. Like in James, “All good things have come from the Father.” So, I just love that prayer. And to your point, I would have never heard that turn of phrase had I not been in a small group, praying with other men. So as we land the plane today on this episode, I hope dads, if you’re listening to this dad, man, I hope you hear a few things. Number one, man, prayer is a powerful way for us to communicate with God. It’s not a monologue, it’s a dialogue. Secondly, I hope you heard the spirit will intercede for you. You don’t have to have all the right words, you just got to go at it with frequency and with fervency. You don’t have to get it exactly right, just get it rolling. You don’t have to get it exactly right, just get it rolling.

Lawson Brown:
I love that.

Kent Evans:
And third, to Lawson’s point just a minute ago, maybe, just maybe, something that you’re doing in your own prayer life, in either a small group or at your home, isn’t even totally meant for you, or for the kids, or your own wife. Maybe it’s meant for the guy who’s there that night, or the guy who overhears you, just like Lawson’s daughters heard him in that prayer moment, I’ve heard my brother-in-law in some prayer moments where I’m like, “Man.” So maybe, dad, part of this conviction to pray more, you’ll realize is not just for your own sake, or even your own kids’, or your own family’s sake, but maybe for the strengthening of people around you [crosstalk 00:29:12].

Lawson Brown:
Absolutely, yep, yep.

Kent Evans:
Lawson, a final word on praying for the dad out there who feels either ill-equipped, or under-equipped, or concerned. What are we going to tell that guy, man? If we were having coffee with that guy and it were the three of us, what do you say to that dad?

Lawson Brown:
Be yourself, there’s no right way. I love the way you say it. You don’t got to get it right, but you do need to get it rolling. Just start. Find someone in your life, be open to that. Ask your wife, just be real, genuine, authentic. God wants you and He to talk. So, approach it like that and just let it flow. He will take over and guide you and give you peace, as He says He will.

Kent Evans:
Awesome. Thank you, Lawson and dad, thanks for listening in. Man, we hope we’ll see you next week as we continue our series on Survival Gear: The 7 Must-Have Tools Every Dad Needs For His Journey. We’ll see you around the corner with episode five in this series.

Kent Evans:
Hey dad, thank you for listening to today’s show. If you found this episode helpful, remember you can get all the content and show notes at manhoodjourney.org/podcast. And if you really liked it, please consider doing three things. Number one, share this podcast with someone. You can hit the share button in your app, wherever you listen to podcasts, or just call the person up and tell them to listen in. Number two, subscribe to this podcast so you get episodes automatically. That helps us as well to help dads find the show. You can do that through your favorite listening app, whatever that is. And finally, review this podcast. Leave us a review, good or bad wherever you listen. Those reviews also help other dads find the show. You can always learn more about what we’re up to at manhoodjourney.org or fatheronpurpose.org. We will see you next week.

Voiceover:
You’ve been dozing off to the Father On Purpose Podcast, featuring Kent Evans and Lawson Brown. Now, wake up. Head over to fatheronpurpose.org for more tools to help you be a godly, intentional and not completely horrible dad. Remember you are not a father on accident, so go be a father on purpose.