Diving Into Fatherhood With Chip Ingram

Show Transcripts:

Intro:

Welcome to the Father On Purpose Podcast, featuring author and ministry leader, Kent Evans, and business executive and military veteran, Lawson Brown. This is a show for you, dad. You want to be a godly and intentional father, unfortunately, you’ve turned to these two knuckleheads for help. Let us know how that works out for you. Before we begin, remember this, you are not a father on accident, so go be a father on purpose. Please welcome your hosts, Kent and Lawson.

 

Kent Evans:

Hey guys. Welcome to another episode of the Father on Purpose Podcast. And I have a special treat for you today, and the special treat for you is, you don’t have to hear me and Lawson the entire time. Isn’t that great news, Lawson?

 

Lawson Brown:

I know. I am so stoked to have our featured guest today.

 

Kent Evans:

Our featured guest today. I was introduced recently to… and he’ll bristle at this description, but a legend in the Christian world in the sense that… Chip Ingram is our guest today. And I met Chip through a mutual friend, and Chip, if you don’t know…. Where would you be if you don’t know Chip Ingram? But he’s a Christian pastor, author, teacher. He’s the founder and CEO of Living on the Edge. It’s an international teaching and discipleship ministry. He has a 40-year resume of having served the Lord faithfully and published dozens of books, more than 15 that I could at least find for sure. And one of his more recent books is called Portrait of a Father, and the subtitle is How to be the Dad Your Child Needs. And so, that’s the topic we’re going to talk about today with Chip, is fatherhood. And before we dive into it, Chip, would you mind giving our listeners a bit of a personal bio on you? I think you have a scat of children and a scat of grandchildren. Can you tell us a little bit about you?

 

Chip Ingram:

Yeah. I’ve been married for 42 and a half years. I have four grown children, twin boys. I think the first line in the little book… It’s a quick read because I… for dads. We don’t sit very long and we don’t read very much, so, yeah, I had to try and jump right in. I think the first line is I jumped right into fatherhood the day I got married. So, I had the privilege of marrying a very godly woman that had two small little boys, twin boys, that I had the privilege of adopting. So, I have two 47-year-olds, a 40-year-old, and a 33-year-old daughter. And my oldest has three kids. The other twin has two. My youngest son has three, and my daughter has four. So we have four grown kids, 12 grandkids. About 10 of the 12 grandkids are here in the Bay Area, near where we live. And then the other two are in Nashville where my son writes a lot of music and does things where he needs to be there, so we go visit them. So, that’s the family history.

 

Kent Evans:

Well, thank you for doing that. And you and I may have that in common soon. My oldest son is about to graduate from college, and he’s a great musician and a worship leader, and will probably end up in Nashville.

 

Chip Ingram:

Yep. It seems like they all gravitate there.

 

Kent Evans:

For some inexplicable reason. Chip, in your history in the ministry, I want to dive into your book and the content on fatherhood, you’ve tackled, I mean, virtually every aspect of ministry in decades of work. You’ve touched on probably every section of the Bible, every counseling-related issue, and marital and couples and communication. At this point in your ministry journey, why did you decide to release a book on fatherhood?

 

Chip Ingram:

Actually, it’s interesting. This one is probably older than almost anything I’ve written. I didn’t ever dream I would be in vocational ministry. So, I thought I was going to be a major college basketball coach. I played ball in college. Then I played overseas in South America and then the Orient. And I was coaching and teaching. And so I did grad work at West Virginia University to get my master’s so I could teach at the college level. Well, while I was playing ball around the world and sharing Christ, it got really obvious that God wanted me to go to seminary. Well, just before leaving for seminary, I married my wife. We put everything that we owned in a truck, and we went to Dallas, Texas, and it was like, okay, now I’ve got to write another thesis. And I had these little five-year-old boys by this time and I thought, I need to write on something that I’m super desperate. I don’t know how to be a dad. My dad was a good guy, but he was an alcoholic out of his hardship through the Marines in World War II. So, I wrote my thesis on the role and responsibility of the father in transmitting values in the family. I learned that the longer the title the more you narrow it down. And then what I did is I looked up every verse in the Bible on fatherhood or parenting. And then I categorized it in all the different genres of scripture. And then my background was in the social sciences. So then I did research on, what do we learn from actual case studies about how kids develop and roles of parents and styles of parenting and what that all produce? And so, from scripture, I came out with these four definitive roles that were very clear, this is what a father is to be, this is what a father is to do. And then I had this other background. So I wrote all that, and it was just for me because I just… I mean, my dad, he was a good guy and I knew he loved me, but I think I heard it for the first time when he was about 58 years old. And he demonstrated it. And so, by God’s grace, he came to Christ in his 50s and the Lord did some wonderful things. But I had two little boys and I thought, what am I supposed to do? And my dad taught me how to be goal-oriented, build a strategic plan, if you fail to plan, you plan to fail, and it’s not the size of the dog in the fight, it’s the size of-

 

Kent Evans:

[crosstalk 00:06:25].

 

Chip Ingram:

… the fight in the dog. I mean, those were the two verses that are not in the Bible that created this workaholic overachiever. And it was like, oh, I’m supposed to love God, love my wife, father, don’t exasperate your children, bring them up in the teaching and admonition of the Lord. And I just thought, I don’t know how to do that. So I basically learned that, in terms of what it says, and then I spent the next 40 years trying to put it into practice. And as I’ve seen the deterioration of the family and all the research that you guys know, that of the top 10 negative things that happen in any child’s life, whether it’s drugs, crime, jail, the most common factor is the absent father. So, I thought, if I could help some dads, and being a dad and having a lot of struggles, I mean, I really struggled with… we had a blended family, trying to figure out, what do you do, everything from discipline to loving, to acceptance, to helping them discover God’s will for their life, to a season of rebellion with one of them. I just thought, hey, I certainly don’t have it all together, but I think I could share, this is what the Bible says, and here’s some things. Do not do this because I’ll tell you for sure, that doesn’t work. And then by God’s grace. We say that in passing, by God’s grace. Because I look back at so many things as a dad I wish I would’ve done differently or at least more gently. My kids have all grown up to embrace the faith of our forefathers who walked with God seeking to raise their kids in the faith and are involved in caring and loving for other people. So, through many trials and tribulations and mistakes, I will add.

 

Lawson Brown:

You mentioned Chip, the four roles, and going through your book, which, by the way, I loved, leader, priest, teacher, loving dad. Which one of these roles was hardest for you to step into, and why? How’d you learn that?

 

Chip Ingram:

The hardest for me… I’m a leader. My father, anyone who knows about the Marines, he was a leader, and you grow up in that house you’re going to be a leader, whether you like it or not. The priest of representing, because of the people that disciplined me, being a priest where I did learn to come before God and then bring God’s word to my kids. But being a loving father that was not based on performance. I mean, I grew up in a home… and again, now I’m old enough. I look back and I just, oh, I get it. If you’re great in baseball, like my dad, then, you’ll be happy son, or while everyone’s sleeping you get up early and you get this degree and the next degree and the next degree and get a scholarship and that’s how you be successful, and that’s how you find a pretty girl, and that’s how… Success equals happiness. I love you so much, I’m going to really show you how to be successful. That created a completely performance-oriented relationship that I felt like my dad loved me when I did well, and, so unintentional, that I didn’t measure up. And that carried over into my faith. I’ve gone into training to renew my mind that God loves me for me. God loves me on good days, bad days. He loves me when I have a deep time of prayer. He loves me when my prayers are shallow. He loves me when I mess up. He loves me when I’m really doing well. Getting that in my head and into my heart. So, for my kids, you asked me a question a little bit later, I use these three-by-five cards. I’m absolutely convinced that transformation at the root of it is renewing your mind. If trying hard would make you a good dad, I would’ve been an awesome dad. I mean, I’ve got the discipline and the trying hard, but I tried so hard and I failed miserably. And so, I began to write on cards what I knew was God’s will and I’ll show them to [inaudible 00:10:44], see these yellow cards. I mean, some of these are like 25 years old.

 

Kent Evans:

Wow.

 

Chip Ingram:

And I would read these over, like three or four, five, six, seven a day. And I mean, it would be like, my goal is to allow my children the freedom to fail, to make home a pressure-free environment. Well, why do you think I wrote that? I’m intense. My goal is to enjoy-

 

Kent Evans:

Sounds like it.

 

Chip Ingram:

… my children one day at a time. Well, why do you think I wrote that? It’s like, it’s about accomplishment, even though. And so, my goal was to communicate unconditional love and acceptance toward my children, regardless of their performance. So, my goal is to be available to my children. My goal is to discover their strengths, talents, interests in their lives, help them develop to their fullest potential. So I would write these cards, and I would just read them over and over and over, because what I found was, you would unconsciously gravitate toward doing that in your relationships.

 

Kent Evans:

Wow.

 

Chip Ingram:

And so, I did. And I think a lot of what I wrote in this book is when you can’t do it, when you’re absolutely stuck and you know it’s so important, what do you do? And so, being a loving father. And now, I’ll say something to dads that have younger kids. I got news for you. Your son is not going to be in the NBA, he’s not going to be in the NHL, and he’s probably not going to be on American Idol. And by the way, if he or she happens to get those things, the chances are they won’t love God, won’t love you, will put white powder up their nose and get absolutely overwhelmed with the fame and the money that they get. Other than that, there are a few rare exceptions. But my point is, as a dad, this vicarious did they make the traveling team and how successful in sports or music, don’t get me wrong, there is plenty of holy ambition and plenty of nurturing and encouraging, but I’ll just tell you, with ones that are grown and we have a good relationship, I’ve had the heart to heart painful talks in their late 30s, at 40, to say, “Dad, I’m still… and I know you got it at a level that was deep, and I know you tried really hard not to be a performance-oriented dad. With that said, dad, you need to understand that, boy, there was just this air, this air, and it was in the water that maybe I didn’t quite measure up unless I was doing well.” And so, praise God. I think my boys are, and my daughter, they’re better parents than me. So I think that’s one thing that we really want to do.

 

Lawson Brown:

That’s great. Wow.

 

Chip Ingram:

So anyway, I guess, is my confessional time over, or?

 

Lawson Brown:

No, that was great. I mean-

 

Kent Evans:

You may go in peace. Well-

 

Lawson Brown:

Look-

 

Kent Evans:

… you may now go in peace.

 

Lawson Brown:

… we love to encourage dads on this show, and hearing you be that transparent about the transformation and the journey is just…

 

Chip Ingram:

And here’s-

 

Lawson Brown:

… is very helpful.

 

Chip Ingram:

… what I’ll tell them. It’s in Proverbs, and it’s repeated in the New Testament, but love covers a multitude of sins. And it’s availability, it’s time, it’s as a dad. It’s not just getting the task done or making sure they’re on time or the school. Please hear, you know what, you don’t loaf in my house, you can’t blow stuff off, you’re not going to be in your bedroom in front of the screen and playing video games and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. So, don’t hear this as laissez-faire parenting. I’m talking to people that are dads who are thinking, I want to be a good dad, I want my kids to turn out right, I want them to really love God, and I want them to make a difference with their life. They’re an arrow in my quiver, and I want to really launch them into a great impact. I’m talking to those dads about, “Hey, yes, there’s all those things we need to do, but the environment needs to be… ” Jesus called himself I’m gentle and meek of heart. Meek is not weak. It’s power under control. The Greek word was used for a wild stallion that was super powerful that had been trained. So, it was all that power under control. So, I just want to say to those dads, don’t miss out on the connection of the heart, don’t unconsciously reward the great grades or the sports or the music or the this or that. I went into training to verbally make sure that I praised the kind of behaviors and character rather than just the performance. So maybe they had a really great game or maybe they didn’t have a great game. And so, my first words, just the opposite of what I heard, was, “Son, I really want you to know it was a tough night out. Sometimes your shot doesn’t drop, but you persevered. You know what, you got back on defense, you were there for your teammates. And I saw you were tempted to hang your head, you didn’t.” What I want to do is you always get what you praise. So I wanted to praise the character qualities. I really thought, I know, your teammates were mad at you, this actually happened, that you were honest, you touched the ball out of bounds, and it was a tight game, and the ref called it the wrong way. It was a Christian school playing another Christian school, in this particular case, and my son goes, “No, I hit it outbound last.” His teammates were just going berserk. And I said, “Son, that’s a winner.” So anyway, I’m sure whatever questions we planned to cover I’ve got us completely off base.

 

Kent Evans:

No. You know what-

 

Chip Ingram:

I just want to encourage-

 

Lawson Brown:

Not a bit. That’s great.

 

Chip Ingram:

… dads, long after middle school, high school, and if they go to college, college years are over, you’re going to find that whether you have a heart connection will be the most valuable thing that you ever have with your kids.

 

Kent Evans:

Hey dad, do you wrestle with anger? Man, I sure have, and so have thousands of other dads in our email list. And so, what we did for those dads and for you, we built a special digital course called The Anger Free Dad. This digital course is chock-full of almost 50 assets, a bunch of teaching videos, a ton of PDF booklets and worksheets so you can walk through and understand your anger triggers, the expectations underneath, and how to pull those out of your heart and mind so you can be a dad who is less angry and more at peace. If you take this course and you do not become less angry, you will get all of your money back. Plus, we’ll send you some boxing gloves so you can beat up the wall at your house with all of your mad anger. Dad, come take the anger-free dad course today at manhoodjourney.org/anger_free_dad. That’s manhood journey.org/anger_free_dad.

 

Kent Evans:

So, Chip, what do we say to a dad who hears what you’re describing and looks himself in the mirror… I’m asking for a friend. Okay. This is not about me. I’m asking for a friend. It’s Lawson.

 

Chip Ingram:

Lawson.

 

Kent Evans:

It’s actually about Lawson.

 

Chip Ingram:

Because Lawson’s got a bike in the back here, so it’s obvious that he’s got some children that you want some coaching for him, correct?

 

Kent Evans:

Let’s-

 

Chip Ingram:

You guys-

 

Kent Evans:

Let’s just say-

 

Chip Ingram:

… what kindness that you would do this for him on air?

 

Kent Evans:

That’s what they call me. They call me Mr. Kindness. It’s funny you should say that.

 

Lawson Brown:

No, they don’t.

 

Kent Evans:

There’s so many other words people would use to describe me. Kindness would be in the list, but it would have an anti in front of it. It would have a modifier. I can hear what you’re saying is resonating with me personally, but also, I know, having talked to hundreds and thousands of dads over the last decade, a lot of dads feel like they’re failing, probably at this specifically, this idea of creating a loving home environment, but just in general, they feel like they’re not measuring up. Let’s say a dad hears what you just said and says, “Man, I know Chip is right. I need to create more of a loving spirit in my home and not have a performance-based house. What are one or two things that dad could do that might be practical first steps that he could take if he just had a minor epiphany?”

 

Chip Ingram:

I think first and foremost is you can’t give away what you don’t have. A lot of us fathers or parents out of fear. And sometimes our intensity, I know for me it was, I didn’t want to mess up, so I was trying really hard. All my worst parenting actually at times was… and I didn’t grow up reading the Bible, I didn’t grow up with a picture of a…

 

Chip Ingram:

Other than Leave It to Beaver’s dad, if people can still remember who that is, that’s the only dad I ever saw that went into your son’s room and, “Hey, how are you doing?”, and, “I think maybe we need to talk.” and stuff like that and I just thought… So I think saying, okay, I can’t give away what I don’t have, I have to get into God’s word, and I’ve got to get with one or two or three other men that will help me become the man that I really want to be. Because, A, I can’t do it apart from the holy Spirit’s power, and he brings that through his word, and I can’t do it by myself, none of us can. Not just being a father, but being a follower of Jesus.

 

Chip Ingram:

And so, I think those would be the first two things. And then, like everything else, I mean, you ask most guys, forget the family, they get up and we go to work, right? So what’s the plan at work? I mean, you got a strategy, you got a plan. I mean, if you’re in business it’s like, what are our quarterly numbers that we need to hit or, hey, I’ve got to bid a house, or I’ve got to wire this house, or I’ve got to do the plumbing on this house, so I’m going to lay it out. And they might do it on the back of a napkin or they might do it on fancy software, but most of us have a plan at our work to, A, figure out how not to lose our jobs, but to be successful at our work. And I would just say this tiny book, what I was trying to do was provide a little blueprint that could say, okay, you want to be a leader, here are some things that leaders do in the home, or a priest, let’s not get it complicated, all you need do is talk to your heavenly father about your kids, and then after you talk to your heavenly father, tell your kids about your heavenly father. And I think it’s a journey. And I think the very, very first step, I think God gets pretty excited when a father says, “I want to be a father like you, like you are to me, and I don’t know-how. If you’ll help me, I’ll do whatever you say. I don’t know what to do.” And often, multiple times I would come to epiphanies where I’d realize, oh, I’m not the father right now, little pre kids and preteens. And I would literally get our family together, or one on one with one of my kids, and just say, “I think I have good intentions, but the last few months here I’ve really blown it.” And whether it was I got so focused at work, or we got into this… we were really big into sports in my family, and I just, somehow, I got way more concerned about your jump shot than your heart. And so, “I’m sorry.” I think there’s something-

 

Kent Evans:

Yeah, that’s big.

 

Chip Ingram:

… cleansing about just asking your kids to forgive you and say… And what’s really interesting guys, is that may be some of our very best fathering because our kids are going to blow it, and what they really will do is not what we tell them anyway. That old line more is caught than taught. They’re going to model their parenting after what we actually do. And unfortunately, that’s both good and bad. And my dad, I mean, I want to be fair here, he, I mean, he was disciplined, he was faithful, he was a very hard worker, he had very clear goals. Well, he passed all those on to me, which were the real key to be successful in school, et cetera. But he also was, okay, we got four A’s and a B, let’s talk about what happened. And I wasn’t guessing… the conversation was not going to be about, hey, so how did you get four A’s? That was not it. Or you went two for four at the batting and the third time up you threw the curveball, didn’t you? You stepped in the bucket out, opened up your hips, and so, you grounded up the shortstop. How many times have we talked about this? Right. And his goal was to help me, but it just felt like, you never measure up and-

 

Lawson Brown:

Yeah, never enough.

 

Chip Ingram:

… I passed on more of that than I would ever want to to my boys. And it’s interesting, I think I did better with my daughter, because you want to be gentle and more delicate, and so… Well, I think too, they tend to model a little bit more after their mom, and I’m married up, so she’s done really well. But all my boys, godly young men, and so, they’ve been very forgiving of their dad.

 

Lawson Brown:

And like all of us people, they’re different. You wrote something that resonated with me that it’s imperative to know how your children learn. And so, as you’re going through examples with them and life stages, you understanding how to relate, how to ask questions, how to be involved in their life. Talk a bit about, how do you involve your children in their learning?

 

Chip Ingram:

Well, I do think that, like any good coach, and that’s what I spent most of my life doing first in sports and now, honestly, I think that’s what a good pastor is, you need… what’s the player’s strength? And, what are their weaknesses? How do they learn? And so, it became very, very obvious that I had one that was very compliant, paralyzed by fear. So I had to take a gentle, but, I mean, I took him outside and put his roller skates on him at about six. You can’t come in, and you can’t take them off. You have to at least try. Couple years later, “I don’t want to learn to ride a bike.” “No, you need to understand, we’re going to be out here until… ” And then I had another one that was very, very, very strong-willed that you could talk until you’re blue in the face. I remember some early discipling and he’d lean back and say, “Is that all you got?”

 

Lawson Brown:

Wow.

 

Chip Ingram:

And he went on to be a very effective wrestler and now a songwriter and persevered. But it was like actions. Talk just frustrated him. Create consequences, do a contract. “These behaviors over here will produce these consequences. What would you like them to be? Because all my consequences haven’t worked so far.”, when he was a teenager. “So, let’s make a contract. So when you beat up your brother, when you talk like this to your mom or you… “, whatever this other one was, “then you come up with what you think would help you learn, because I’m on your team and I’m done fighting with you. Our relationship matters more than us going back and forth on all this.” And so he did. And so he goes, “If I do… ” He was strong and big and his brother was skinny at the time, and man, he would just wail on him, and not… the way the brothers fight. I forget. It was like, “I’ll be grounded for three days.” So, of course, I knew it was going to happen. And so I sat down and you said, “Okay, this is what you’re going to do.” “You can’t do that to me.” I said, “No. Son, I didn’t do anything. This is what you came up with.” “But dad, I just made the first team, and if I miss practice for three days… ” and blah, blah, blah, blah. I said, “Oh man, I played ball in school, and man, it’s so hard to make the… I feel so bad for you. I’m on your team. And gosh, I’m glad to let the coach know it’s only three days or something, but that you’re a man, you’ve owned up to your responsibility.” And doing that with him was what produced results. It was actions, and where the other one…

 

Lawson Brown:

Yeah, very different.

 

Chip Ingram:

And they’re twins, so it wasn’t like their… It’s like I had a control group, experimental group, and it was… you could gently but clearly say something and he would feel like you just lost your last friend. So, I think it’s just becoming a student of our kids and seeing what they respond to and realizing the five love languages. I don’t think that’s just for couples. So is it words of praise, time alone, gifts, rewards, and just, wow. I mean, I remember when I coached basketball. There were just times where you just realized, if you could get this kid to that spot on the floor and you could teach him three things to do with the ball, he was unstoppable. And every time he would go to that spot, get big, and you could get him the ball, then I would go nuts. I didn’t care whether he made it or not, man, that was amazing, that drop step, you are… And what I found is the more I did that the more he got to that spot. And I think it’s a lot with our kids. And encouraging and rewarding the things they really do well, and then, when needed, calmly, without outbursts of anger, letting them own the consequences of their behavior. And I think that’s a big part. I don’t want to make this a gender-specific issue, because it’s not always, but that balance of the man and the woman for those that have both a mother and a dad in the home is… Moms tend to be a little bit more merciful, and our kids work all of us. And so being the kind but firm person… The secular research is the number one influencer of moral development in a child’s life is the father. Self-image is basically 50-50. We get our self-image from both of our parents. But the moral, what’s right, what’s wrong, that built-in sense of conscience and correctness is predominantly from the father, which is an explanation for why a father-absent house really struggles with kids getting in trouble. The one thing I would say about dads too is, just get used to, I hate you, all my other friends are getting to do this, you don’t really love me, why are you so strict? All those are words that are telling you… as I would smile to my kids and I would say, “Well, here’s the deal, honey,” or son, “I just love you more than they love their kids. And 10 years from now you’re going to be so thankful at what we’re doing right now. And you know what, it’s okay if you don’t like me right now. It’s okay, because-

 

Kent Evans:

It’s funny you say that Chip because I’m just getting to the age where my oldest son, who’s about to graduate college, I’m starting to get some of that back. He now realizes that we weren’t perfect parents obviously, but he’s like, man, I’m so glad you guys did X and Y, and I’m just now starting to get a taste of that with my oldest.

 

Chip Ingram:

My youngest son is a pastor and just planted a church. They had their nine-year birthday as a church. And I think the average age must be 28, maybe, maybe 29, and a few older people like myself and others. But he did a little study about four or five years ago. Because I was doing some teaching on media and pornography and addiction and screens and all the rest, and so I asked him to help me. And he got… I mean, and the church has really grown, so he’s got all these twenty-something people, and he asked them, and it was crazy. All of them from like 22, 27, 29, they all looked back and said, “I wish… ” Now, I would’ve fought them tooth and nail. “I wish my parents would’ve been stricter. I wish they would have put filters on my phone. I wish they would’ve known who I was hanging out with and what I did. I wish… ” I mean, this is already… They’re only like 25, 26, 27, but what they’re experiencing is the fallout and the pain of some of the addictions. And so, I just want to tell dads, a big part of our job, it’s been the loneliest thing I’ve ever done in my life at times, is knowing my wife thinks I’m being too hard, my kids definitely think I’m being too hard, and someone’s got to stand for the truth, and it’s very lonely. And you just work on being gentle in executing it. And my rule was, not that I… I couldn’t keep it all the time, but my rule was, never discipline in anger. Often I’d say to my kids, “You go to your room.”, and then I would say, “Now I’m going to go to my room because I’ve got to go… I’m going to my room to calm down. So I’m so ticked off you lied to me for the third time, and I’m going to get calm before God, and then I’m going to walk in calmly, and we’re going to execute justice, whatever that is, in a calm way.” And again, we’re laughing about this, but that’s why we need each other as dads. I mean, it’s so lonely, and it can be so discouraging, but when you do it, the rewards… I’m on the way. My one son has an 18-year-old, the other two have 16-year-olds as their oldest, and I’m watching them now and seeing the kind of dads they are. And even some of the values that… I mean, my youngest son was not overly disciplined and he was anything but a planner. I mean, the guy just… charm. I mean, he just had charm oozing out of him. I would get something like, and he didn’t like math, so it would be something like, “Your son is such a delight. What an honor to have him in my math class.” I wanted to write back, “Hey, I’m glad you like him, but a D in math in six weeks is really not what I’m looking for.” But there was a correlation between, well, he didn’t turn in any of the homework, but other than that… And so what’s so ironic now, because he jokingly told me once, he goes, “Dad, I think I was grounded through most of high school.”, because if he didn’t turn something in. But watching him be the planner, and watching how disciplined he is, and watching what he does with his kids, even the stuff that you think, oh my, they’ll never get it, it really does register. And so it’s exciting. I like to say, being a dad, and I think a mom too, but there’s a really long fuse. In other words, so you have to light this fuse and then you have to wait a really, really, really long time before you get to see the reward of your labor. And I just think, because of that, it can be very, very discouraging, and the pressure of the culture and the pressure our kids put on us, and candidly, as men, a lot of us just need to grow up and stop trying to be so liked by our kids or come off as cool or… Yeah. When your family’s mad at you, and they’re mad at you for you doing what’s right, you need to take that to heaven and say, hey, they’ll get over it, but I would rather have them mad at me than God mad at me, or short term relief, oh yeah, go ahead and do whatever you want, and then long term pain where they’re digging out of a hole.

 

Kent Evans:

Hey dad, sometimes being a dad can seem like a very difficult journey for which you and I are ill-equipped, and we need gear on this journey. So we built a seven-part framework, and we call it Survival Gear, the seven must-have tools every dad needs for his journey. We took these tools, we wrapped them all into an ebook, and that e-book is entirely free. You can download this free ebook at manhoodjourney.org/survival_gear, that’s /survival_gear, manhoodjourney.org. Come snag this free ebook and get equipped for your fatherhood journey.

 

Lawson Brown:

Yeah. And then they look back and wish that you had done what you knew in your heart was the right way.

 

Chip Ingram:

Yes.

 

Kent Evans:

Oh, yeah. Lawson has two daughters. They’re in their 20s, and I have five sons from 22 down to six. And so, he and I have shared stories a lot about that idea that when you’re in the thick of it sometimes it’s hard to see the fruit of it. You’re right in the-

 

Chip Ingram:

Great line.

 

Kent Evans:

… middle of all this, and right when you’re in the thick of it you can’t see the fruit. And I feel like that’s part of the exercise of being a faithful dad, is that I’ve got to trust that what I’m doing now is going to yield fruit, because man, dagonit, I can’t see it right now. One of the things you say in your book, Chip, and I want to make sure, before we wrap up, which we got all day. This is amazing. Thank you for coming on the show. Dads, if you’re listening and you haven’t picked it up, you need to go grab the book portrait of a father by Chip Ingram. And part of the reason you need to grab it is because it’s biblical, it’s sound, it’s tried and tested. Again, he’s been working on it, basically, his whole life, as he mentioned, but it’s really practical, it’s extremely biblical, and it’s a very quick read. It’s not difficult to read through. I think Chip went with the Kent Evans spacing, where it’s like he even spaced out a little bit, thank you for that, Chip, very nice, where I could get through it quickly and feel like I’m moving. One page three minutes. This is great. One of the things-

 

Chip Ingram:

Yeah, it’s only about 90 pages, I think.

 

Kent Evans:

One of the things you say in the book-

 

Chip Ingram:

Lawson told me if I made it more than 100 pages we could never do this program, because, although an amazing father to five sons, he says, just candidly, he said, very slow reader. He’s good at writing books, but-

 

Lawson Brown:

Slow learner.

 

Chip Ingram:

… reading-

 

Lawson Brown:

Slow reader.

 

Chip Ingram:

Reading is not one of his big strengths. So, we have to make it short.

 

Lawson Brown:

I’m going-

 

Kent Evans:

The power-

 

Lawson Brown:

… to have to read-

 

Kent Evans:

… of podcasting-

 

Lawson Brown:

… this out loud to him over the phone, so it’s going to take-

 

Kent Evans:

The power of podcasting is we can take all this garbage out. We can cut all this-

 

Chip Ingram:

That’s right.

 

Kent Evans:

It’s just not [crosstalk 00:39:44].

 

Chip Ingram:

I just want to say to Hunter who probably does some of the editing, I think you will know best what will serve-

 

Lawson Brown:

Hunter knows.

 

Chip Ingram:

… those that are joining us-

 

Kent Evans:

[crosstalk 00:39:54].

 

Chip Ingram:

… better than Kent would.

 

Kent Evans:

Chip, you’re ruthless. You are ruthless.

 

Lawson Brown:

I love it.

 

Kent Evans:

Goodness, gracious.

 

Lawson Brown:

I love it, Chip. You’re nailing it.

 

Kent Evans:

I was going to ask another question, but now just forget it. Forget it. This is horrible. No. One of the things you said, which I love the line in this book, and I think I know what you mean by it, but I think it might be an interesting way to have you create some closing thoughts for dads. You say in the book it’s possible to line our kids up for, and I’m going to put in air quotes, success, and watch them become successful failures if they haven’t grown to become like Jesus. I loved the turn of phrase, successful failures. Can you elaborate and help Dads understand? What did you mean by that phrase?

 

Chip Ingram:

Well, I think part of it is where I live. It’s everywhere. But I live in one of the most competitive places in the world in Silicon Valley. You can get a 4.3, but if you don’t get into Stanford, Columbia, or Harvard, we have children every year at graduation who step in front of the train because they feel like they’re a failure and they’ve shamed their family because unless you are at that level. That sounds a bit extreme. But I also have spent a lot of years, and my own challenge is not as extreme, with very intense and watching… I’ve done this pastoring thing for a lot of years, and I’ve watched them spend tens of thousands of dollars and travel all over the country and get into the very best schools and do coaching for the ACT, SAT, or I mean, what… violin to the point that you make it into Juilliard’s, and now have this journey of… One particular case, I have a friend whose sister got a perfect score on the ACT and the SAT, went to one of those universities, top two or three in the nation, did her graduate work, and another one did her doctorate, has changed her address three or four times and phone numbers so her parents cannot contact her. What I mean by that is I have cried with men and women for 35 to 40 years as a pastor who sent their kids to good schools, went to church, sent them to the youth group, Christian schools, and really the goal, unconsciously or very consciously, was, I really want you to be a success, academically, musically, sports, name it, business. And the kids don’t share their values. Their kids don’t walk with God. Their kids are narcissistic. But their kids basically have turned out exactly the way they’ve trained them, to be successful, to make it about them. And I guess if it makes you feel good to say my kid went to X school or my son scored so many points at this or that, or she’s really a great violin player, she doesn’t call me, she doesn’t talk to me, she’s not connected to the family. It is the saddest thing in the world. And I have parents now who would say, I’m not exaggerating, “I wouldn’t care if my son or daughter,” and I don’t mean to be pejorative to garbage collectors, okay, but, “it wouldn’t matter to me if they worked as a garbage collector or a minimum wage job, honestly, if they love God with all their heart, they had joy in their life, they were other-centered, and they wanted to be around us, and we had a tight relationship. I would trade all their accolades, all the… ” Or I think I just created a new word, but acc… You can say it… Quit laughing at me. This is where Hunter takes us out. Acc… Come on, someone…

 

Lawson Brown:

Accolade.

 

Chip Ingram:

Acc..

 

Lawson Brown:

Accolade.

 

Chip Ingram:

Accolades. There we go.

 

Lawson Brown:

[Acoloids 00:44:14] came down from outer space. The Acoloids came down from outer space.

 

Chip Ingram:

I should have just kept going, but all the accolades and just realize they’re meaningless because the day comes when your kids are adults, what you want is to have an adult to adult friendship, to see them walk with God, be other-centered, and their life be purposeful and meaningful. And so, I ask men when I get… I say, just get your calendar out and you show me how much time and money you’re spending on your kid’s character and spiritual development over against his scholastic, athletic, or musical development. You send him to a camp for music. You send him for a camp for this. You hired a personal coach and a trainer, nutrition for tennis, and on and on and on. So, did you hire a spiritual coach? I mean, what are you doing, where’s the time go? Because we’re all smart enough to know where you invest your energy is where kids are going to learn what matters most.

 

Kent Evans:

Wow. Man-

 

Lawson Brown:

Very good.

 

Kent Evans:

… what a great place… What a great reminder. One of the things you said in there, Chip, was that sometimes the kids we’re parenting end up right where we parented them to go, but not intentionally, not intentionally. Well, Chip, thank you for investing in the dads who will hear this podcast. Thank you so much for encouraging them and having some fun along the way, because, as you’ve already articulated, fathering can be rough and can feel lonely. And so, I hope dads were both encouraged, inspired, challenged, but also had a good laugh along the way today as we spent some time with ministry leader and author and dad and grandfather-

 

Lawson Brown:

It’s been great to be-

 

Kent Evans:

… and husband-

 

Lawson Brown:

… with you, Chip.

 

Kent Evans:

… Chip Ingram. Go get his book, Portrait of a Father. Thank you so much, Chip, for your time today.

 

Chip Ingram:

And they can get that at livingontheedge.org. It’s all one word, livingontheedge.org. And just, I want to add one thing because I feel like… We talked about the challenges. Last Sunday I sat as my son, who happens to be a pastor, but it wouldn’t matter what his role was, and I watched hundreds of people whose lives had been changed who weren’t a part of anything, the great majority who didn’t know Christ personally nine years earlier. And one of the things is, we got to remember, remember Jesus said it was for the joy set before him endured the cross. And I think we haven’t talked about, and maybe you guys could do a podcast on the rewards of fatherhood, because, despite all those pains, wow, I think the relationship with my daughter and the four little ones and them running into my house or, as I talked with a friend, my one son who went through a rebellious streak who I poured gasoline on. I mean, I can tell you how not to help a child going through rebellion. And now he’s writing songs that the whole world is singing and honoring God, and another son who’s using his hands and build a physical therapy clinic and loves people. And those rewards, not just of the grandchildren, but of your kids, the fruitfulness of their lives and realizing, wow, it was a long journey to get here, and it is a journey, even… Your role completely changes, but you’re always their dad. There is a great, great reward. I just want to add this, because I felt like I undersold it’s worth it. And if you don’t believe it’s worth it, you won’t pay the price. And I’m 67 years old. I’ve got two 47-year-olds, a 40-year-old, and a 33-year-old. I can say something that a lot of guys can’t. I mean, it’s worth it. It’s really worth it. And I’ve shared enough to let them know, you can be very imperfect and even mess up a few times here and there, God is gracious. Kids are resilient. The only way you lose is if you quit. And we tend to quit by going to our hobbies, our work, or sitting in front of a TV or a computer screen in denial because down deep we’re afraid to be a dad because we don’t really know-how. I just want to say to dads, that’s not an option, and the price you’ll pay for that is so high. You don’t want to go there. So, that’s my final swan song to our fellow fathers.

 

Kent Evans:

Well, I hope it’s not the last time we have you on the show. The next show we do with you will be the rewards of fatherhood. Man, what a great podcast title that would be Lawson. Let’s do that one next.

 

Chip Ingram:

We’re-

 

Kent Evans:

By the way, guys-

 

Chip Ingram:

… for sure doing that.

 

Kent Evans:

… I want to remind the listeners, livingontheedge.org, that’s livingontheedge.org. Go there. Download all kinds of cool stuff. But go get the book, Portrait of a Father, today. Dads, I hope you’ve been blessed, as Lawson and I have, to spend this time with ministry leader and author, Chip Ingram. Thank you, Chip.

 

Lawson Brown:

Thank you, Chip.

 

Chip Ingram:

Great to be with you.

 

Kent Evans:

Hey dad, thank you for listening to today’s show. If you found this episode helpful, remember you can get all the content and show notes at manhoodjourney.org/podcast. And if you really liked it, please consider doing three things. Number one, share this podcast with someone. You can hit the share button in your app, wherever you listen to podcasts, or just call a person up and tell them to listen in. Number two, subscribe to this podcast so you get episodes automatically. That helps us as well to help dads find the show. You can do that through your favorite listening app, whatever that is. And finally, review this podcast. Leave us a review, good or bad, wherever you listen. Those reviews also help other dads find the show. You can always learn more about what we’re up to at manhoodjourney.org or fatheronpurpose.org. We will see you next week.

 

Outro:

You’ve been dozing off to the Father on Purpose Podcast, featuring Kent Evans and Lawson Brown. Now, wake up, head over to fatheronpurpose.org for more tools that can help you be a godly, intentional, and not complete horrible dad. Remember, you are not a father on accident, so go be a father on purpose.